Soldering Throttle Cables

[thunderbolt]

I am making two single throttle cables for my 74 Roadster from twistgrip to carb. I know about doing the birdcage on the inner cable at the twistgrip end. But what about the very small nipple at the carb slide end? Is just slipping it on the inner cable and soldering enough to hold it - surely you can't birdcage that end?
Any advice appreciated.
BTW I am using a soldering pot.
Cheers Don

 

[Time Warp]

Personally I do not rate twin cables as any movement steering or otherwise can disrupt the synchronisation.
I made this jumbo splitter for my Moto Guzzi ( 21 mm OD body 88 mm long at the main body with a Acetyl body and shuttle) which is super smooth.

I used to make cables, the nipple at the cable end can get a small countersink to gain some flaring of the cable end but would not waste my time (personally) these days.
Draw a picture and mail it off to Conwire in Sydney, they even posted the cables ($15 each cable) then sent me the invoice.

https://cablerepairs.com.au/light-duty-throttles.htm

Made to order throttle cables Australia.

I needed some specialised cables after making a custom splitter and adding angled tube guides to a pair of Dellorto's and was lucky enough to find this resource so will pass it on fwiw. An email sent Sunday night with a picture got a reply from Len Monday morning to say they would be done by...

www.accessnorton.com

 

[johnm]

I am making two single throttle cables for my 74 Roadster from twistgrip to carb. I know about doing the birdcage on the inner cable at the twistgrip end. But what about the very small nipple at the carb slide end? Is just slipping it on the inner cable and soldering enough to hold it - surely you can't birdcage that end?
Any advice appreciated.
BTW I am using a soldering pot.
Cheers Don

I got some of those small nipples for the carb end from Venhill. They are cheap. Postage is the biggest cost.

If you trim the cable end with a Dremel cut off disc or a really good pair of sidecutters you can thread the nipple on and bend two or three wire strands back with small needle nose pliers.

This gives you enough for a mini birdsnest which is all you need.

I have had those silly little nipples pull through even with top brand cables and resolder ALL nipples myself.

 

[Fast Eddie]

I’m with TW in that twin cables are definitely a step backwards. This is especially so on a Commando where you can’t easily stick a finger in the carb ends to check slide synchronicity easily every fortnight.

Old school twist grips used to have a throttle stop adjuster in them, it’s purpose was that at WOT it would but up against the stop rather than strain the cables. This was wise!

One additional cautionary note about soldering cables is that some cable inners are stainless steel. Stainless steel requires a special flux, without which you’ll never get a proper tinned surface, resulting in pulled nipples (ooh matron) !

Those tiny carb end nipples are actually quite deep, therefore they have a large surface area for tinning, and that’s why they’re not usually bird nested IMHO as a properly soldered nipple will be very strong.

 

[baz]

I’m with TW in that twin cables are definitely a step backwards. This is especially so on a Commando where you can’t easily stick a finger in the carb ends to check slide synchronicity easily every fortnight.

Old school twist grips used to have a throttle stop adjuster in them, it’s purpose was that at WOT it would but up against the stop rather than strain the cables. This was wise!

One additional cautionary note about soldering cables is that some cable inners are stainless steel. Stainless steel requires a special flux, without which you’ll never get a proper tinned surface, resulting in pulled nipples (ooh matron) !

Those tiny carb end nipples are actually quite deep, therefore they have a large surface area for tinning, and that’s why they’re not usually bird nested IMHO as a properly soldered nipple will be very strong.

I believe the cables that contain stainless can be soldered using phosphoric acid essentially rust killer as flux
I have not done this myself so can not confirm

 

[johnm]

I believe the cables that contain stainless can be soldered using phosphoric acid essentially rust killer as flux
I have not done this myself so can not confirm

I just use silver solder

 

[thunderbolt]

I believe the cables that contain stainless can be soldered using phosphoric acid essentially rust killer as flux
I have not done this myself so can not confirm

I am using galvanised inner cable for the ease of soldering/tinning. Thanks John for your tip on just using a few strands bent outside the end of the nipple.

 

[marshg246]

I am making two single throttle cables for my 74 Roadster from twistgrip to carb. I know about doing the birdcage on the inner cable at the twistgrip end. But what about the very small nipple at the carb slide end? Is just slipping it on the inner cable and soldering enough to hold it - surely you can't birdcage that end?
Any advice appreciated.
BTW I am using a soldering pot.
Cheers Don

Yes, "birdcage" them and then, if needed, file after soldering. The small nipples from Flanders have one side square cut and the other dished. The cable goes in from the square-cut side. I birdcage them significantly, push the nipple down onto the birdcage and solder. Never had one come loose.

Several below will tell you not to use single cables - I do on all my personal bikes and on every bike I build for people unless they ask otherwise. Single cables have never caused me problems, junction boxes have often, and I find adjusting for sync on the tops of the carbs to be a PITA - if you get them synced and the adjusters are too far (too much slack) one or both cable ends can come out of the junction and cause annoying to dangerous problems.

 

[thunderbolt]

Yes, "birdcage" them and then, if needed, file after soldering. The small nipples from Flanders have one side square cut and the other dished. The cable goes in from the square-cut side. I birdcage them significantly, push the nipple down onto the birdcage and solder. Never had one come loose.

Several below will tell you not to use single cables - I do on all my personal bikes and on every bike I build for people unless they ask otherwise. Single cables have never caused me problems, junction boxes have often, and I find adjusting for sync on the tops of the carbs to be a PITA - if you get them synced and the adjusters are too far (too much slack) one or both cable ends can come out of the junction and cause annoying to dangerous problems.

My feelings exactly Greg. Thanks for confirmation.

Cheers Don

 

[dobba99]

I just use silver solder

Expect your silver soldered cable to break quite soon, the temperature that silver solder melts at (600plus degrees) will anneal the cable and destroy its temper. There is a reason cables are soft soldered or crimped

 

[johnm]

Expect your silver soldered cable to break quite soon, the temperature that silver solder melts at (600plus degrees) will anneal the cable and destroy its temper. There is a reason cables are soft soldered or crimped

Interesting.

There are 4 levels of silversolder available here. Very soft through to hard. The type I use melts with an ordinary soldering iron and works just fine with stainless cable. Lasted about 7 years so far.

The problem is commercially supplied cables pull through. I personally have had one rear brake cable and three throttle or choke cables pull through.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Interesting.

There are 4 levels of silversolder available here. Very soft through to hard. The type I use melts with an ordinary soldering iron and works just fine with stainless cable. Lasted about 7 years so far.

The problem is commercially supplied cables pull through. I personally have had one rear brake cable and three throttle or choke cables pull through.

Perhaps reduce your spinach consumption ??

 

[Fast Eddie]

Modern ‘lead free’ solder has more tin in it than old leaded solder. It therefore has a higher mechanical strength. I seriously doubt one could pull nipples off if soldered with modern lead free solder PROVIDED the solder is properly tinned to the surfaces.

This is why the use of the correct flux is so important.

Notwithstanding the above claim, I’d still birdcage wherever possible. Nowt wrong wi’ belt and braces !

 

[johnm]

Expect your silver soldered cable to break quite soon, the temperature that silver solder melts at (600plus degrees) will anneal the cable and destroy its temper. There is a reason cables are soft soldered or crimped

Hi

I have done a bit more digging around on this because the stainless steel cables I soldered seem to be just fine.

Stainless wire strands can be annealed at something like 650 to 750 C according to specs on the internet . (I assumed you meant deg C although you didn't specify)

The silver solder I used is lead free (tin) and 3.5 % silver content and labeled with a melting point of 220 C. This is consistant with other data I have found. See attached.

The only thing I can think you might mean is Easy flow silver brazing alloy or similar which has about 45 % Silver and a melting point around 650 C plus. But this is not called silver solder. At least in NZ.

I don't understand how this 220 C melting silver solder can anneal the wire. Can you please explain?

 

[Fast Eddie]

Hi

I have done a bit more digging around on this because the stainless steel cables I soldered seem to be just fine.

Stainless wire strands can be annealed at something like 650 to 750 C according to specs on the internet . (I assumed you meant deg C although you didn't specify)

The silver solder I used is lead free (tin) and 3.5 % silver content and labeled with a melting point of 220 C. This is consitant with other data I have found. See attached.

The only thing I can think you might mean is Easy flow or similar which has about 45 % Silver and a melting point around 650 C.

I don't understand how this silver solder can anneal the wire. Can you please explain?

I think it’s international language differences. IIRC Silver Solder over here is something that requires oxy acetylene, see link below re temperatures.

I’m pretty sure that what you are describing is what we’d call ‘soft solder’ or plumbers solder, ie the stuff used in plumbing for capillary soldered joints, as even that has a melting point of 220+ degrees C.

Here’s a silver solder kit in the U.K.:

Silver Solder Brazing Stick and Fux (Pack of 8)

Silver Solder Brazing Rods and Fux (Pack of 8) from Frost.co.uk - The Specialist of High Quality Tools & Equipment for the Classic Vehicle Restorer

www.frost.co.uk

Soft solder:

Tradesave Solder Wire Lead Free 500G Reel 99713

TradeSave Solder Wire, Lead-Free. A highly effective & efficient plumbing product, suitable for the jointing of Copper Tube & Copper Fittings. The Lead Free Solder Wire comes on 500 gram reel and is useful for the creation of joints, providing a secure finish quickly & cleanly. Our TradeSave...

www.cityplumbing.co.uk

 

[johnm]

I think it’s international language differences. IIRC Silver Solder over here is something that requires oxy acetylene, see link below re temperatures.

I’m pretty sure that what you are describing is what we’d call ‘soft solder’ or plumbers solder, ie the stuff used in plumbing for capillary soldered joints, as even that has a melting point of 220+ degrees C.

Here’s a silver solder kit in the U.K.:

Silver Solder Brazing Stick and Fux (Pack of 8)

Silver Solder Brazing Rods and Fux (Pack of 8) from Frost.co.uk - The Specialist of High Quality Tools & Equipment for the Classic Vehicle Restorer

www.frost.co.uk

Soft solder:

Tradesave Solder Wire Lead Free 500G Reel 99713

TradeSave Solder Wire, Lead-Free. A highly effective & efficient plumbing product, suitable for the jointing of Copper Tube & Copper Fittings. The Lead Free Solder Wire comes on 500 gram reel and is useful for the creation of joints, providing a secure finish quickly & cleanly. Our TradeSave...

www.cityplumbing.co.uk

You got it!!

This is what is called silver solder down here. (and in Australia and the USA I think)

It solders stainless cable just fine in my experience.

Four nations divided by a common language.

 

[baz]

You got it!!

This is what is called silver solder down here. (and in Australia and the USA I think)

It solders stainless cable just fine in my experience.

Four nations divided by a common language.

Aaaah soft solder
Now it makes sense

 

[cliffa]

I am making two single throttle cables for my 74 Roadster from twistgrip to carb. I know about doing the birdcage on the inner cable at the twistgrip end. But what about the very small nipple at the carb slide end? Is just slipping it on the inner cable and soldering enough to hold it - surely you can't birdcage that end?
Any advice appreciated.
BTW I am using a soldering pot.
Cheers Don

My advice, get a Don Pender aka. @madass140 gantry. One cable, once set carbs never go out of sync. All the advantages of twin carbs, but the simplicity of a single.

 

[worntorn]

Expect your silver soldered cable to break quite soon, the temperature that silver solder melts at (600plus degrees) will anneal the cable and destroy its temper. There is a reason cables are soft soldered or crimped

Venhill silver solder all of their factory made Featherlight cables. Featherlight cables use a stainless inner.
I've been using their silver soldered Featherlight cables for ten years now on several bikes, no issues.
In fact they seem very close to permanent cables, if there is such a thing.
They must have a method for silver soldering that does not harm the cable.
Note that they send out galvanized cable in the do it yourself kits. They mention that silver soldering is not for the average bike owner.

Glen

 

[dobba99]

Venhill silver solder all of their factory made Featherlight cables. Featherlight cables use a stainless inner.
I've been using their silver soldered Featherlight cables for ten years now on several bikes, no issues.
In fact they seem very close to permanent cables, if there is such a thing.
They must have a method for silver soldering that does not harm the cable.
Note that they send out galvanized cable in the do it yourself kits. They mention that silver soldering is not for the average bike owner.

Glen

Nowhere on the Venhill website do they mention silver solder. perusing the FAQ page on Venhills site says that they recommend electrical or plumbers solder for the galvanised wire they supply or Tinman grade C solder for the stainless wire.
To call lead free soft solder 'silver solder' because it has a few percent (less than 5%) silver content is grossly miss leading. The silver solder i was talking about is the high silver content stuff (50% and upwards) sold by Johnsen and Mattey. Its a bit like calling petrol 'gas'
Say 'What is Gas?' to anyone outside the USA and they will say it is what their central heating boiler or cooker burns. Ask the same people what their car runs on the answer will be petrol or diesel or electricity or LPG or maybe gasoline