Your Norton as noisy?

The only way to check the spring is by taking it apart which requires no special tools. However, re-assembling does require special tools. So unfort. you cannot check without re-setting the tension. CNW has a ONE07 tool to do this. I would start with the free stuff first and see what happens. If it's not that, then purchase the tool and a new spring and go to town. The spring is seen on the CNW website. Its just a laser cut or waterjet spring, but if you over tension it, which is what was happening for a while there at UK factory, the spring is garbage and the engine is noisy. Over tensioning that spring is easily done. If you can live with clacking noise, that spring can be changed never or one day at your convenience. It wont harm the engine being sloppy. BUT>>> if it's the RING GEAR, thats a whole different story. And the real only way to check is by removing the clutch basket. >>See my manual on that.

SO>>> Be warned!!! When you go to replace the spring, be in a good mood with lots of patience :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: It's an easy job, just need some dexterity to set that spring tension and not go past a tooth.
 
What are the next steps in trying to deal with a noisy engine?

I have done the following
- replaced split gear spring (original was 1mm over stretch)
- tightened timing chain
- 20-50 Liqui-Moli oil in primary

I have yet to check the valve clearances.

Riding home last night I really felt that the engine noise is still not acceptable - the clacking and thrashing up to 3500rpm is very concerning. Under acceleration from 4000-5500rpm there is another set of rattling sounds like the engine is going to detonate.

Bike had done 1500miles when I got it in May, its a 2013 CR. I have done 1400miles on it.

I have no issues with the fueling, original map I believe. I run 94 ethanol free gas.
I have done a de-cat.
No issues with the air box filling with oil, no modifications made on that, still original.

So here is a question for the FACTORY and the group...... what should I do?
Dealer network in Western Canada is pretty thin.
Anywhere I can send my engine?
 
You've got one of the best places to take your bike, or engine, in Canada with Richard and his Dad!
 
Message me and I'll give you the number. Or contact Peter Howes and ask him for Daves number.
 
I guess you guys will find out if it's the clutch side as well.

Same symptoms with mine under load like heavy metal on metal sound.
It was my clutch basket being loose (moving on its rivets).

I also checked and changed the split gear ring.
Biiiig difference now and am thinking of going heavier on oil from 10w40 for icing the cake.

Hang in there...a quieter Motor made all the difference for me.

One question: Is it considerably better when could at idle? (When oil is thicker?). Mine sounded better as soon as warmer after few minutes it sounded very bad indeed
 
What are the symptoms of the clutch basket issue?
I am finding the take off's are notchy - I can't feather the clutch for a smooth take off, it grabs intermittently, juddering, seems to be getting worse.

Then how does one check for a bad bearing without a full tear down?
 
You can remove the primary side cover to discover a lot. Push and pull on the balance shaft. The clutch basket. Etc....
 
bushman said:
What are the symptoms of the clutch basket issue?
I am finding the take off's are notchy - I can't feather the clutch for a smooth take off, it grabs intermittently, juddering, seems to be getting worse.

Then how does one check for a bad bearing without a full tear down?

Hi Bushman.

I cant recall what year your bike was, however i picked up on your synthetic oil in the primary and it did help in my 2016 mk11. But your graunch and grab problem on clutch take up is the same as mine. Its been that way since new, now just over 4000 miles. I've concluded that you could spend your life and all your savings trying to perfect these 961's.

I watch, wait and learn what others do to resolve these annoying imperfections, most if not all are far more determined and qualified than I.
Much like the old Commando's from the 70's adaptions and improvements filtered through in time. But at 63 by the time the 961 teething issues are resolved I will be well past my sell by date. So in the meantime, or at least until something falls off or disintegrates I plan just to ride this beautiful bike. On saying that i would still love to learn if you discover a solution to the clutch issue.

Good luck.

Mark.
 
I agree with your sentiment - I know it may take some time to sort out some of these issues and I am determined to see this through.

I am almost at the point of sending the bike to the dealer Norton in Ontario for a full upgrade.... question as always who foots the bill? Will Norton step up with some help?

In the mean time I will do as Richard suggests, pop the primary, remove the clutch and have a check around. Will check the valves as well.

What concerns me is the thrashing, clacking sounds don't sound at all healthy - I would hate to have the engine destroy itself because I am told to live with the noise, it is normal. How much is too much?

I have Norton's in the shed going back to 1950 and all motors are mechanically quiet - the Model 7 the quietest. Maybe I will keep my eye out for a insurance write-off 1200 Triumph engine for a new world Triton... it's been 20 years since I built a Triton, this would be an interesting project for sure.
 
bushman said:
What are the symptoms of the clutch basket issue?
I am finding the take off's are notchy - I can't feather the clutch for a smooth take off, it grabs intermittently, juddering, seems to be getting worse.

Then how does one check for a bad bearing without a full tear down?


Hi ,

Yes. Been there. It's a long read but it may help.

≈≈≈DREAM SEQUENCE≈≈≈≈≈

The symptoms is sounds like mini jack hammer hitting metal under load when warm - and if it's up an incline it sounds pretty 'special'.

It also sounds like it's further forward in the engine (crank). It did to me at least so I checked timing chain tensioner as well.

So:

Went to dealer.
Replaces split gear ring as was just over.
This fixed a different noise that was also there at idle (even with cold oil)

They checked clutch basket this time more to see if was old style.
BUT now I had graunching(squeely) and juddery clutch on take up (first gear stuff)

Went back.
They measured the clutch shaft (as per Richard's recommendation) so I advise that as well.
It was fine.

They noticed clutch baske moving on its rivets (they pulled out and placed on bench. Even light pressure showed this up.)
Replaced clutch basket and found plates were in wrong order from previous booking.

Now...no more jackhammer , "what the f**k is that?" Style noise.
It is still mechanical and mettalic sounds but really is more in keeping with you would think the character would be not "this thing is broken" feeling.
Clutch is no longer grabby or graunching as well. I thought this was fixed from change in oil but no it looks like plates order and possibly wrong movement of basket gone.

Slightly heavier oil and probably would sound like my (newish) Guzzi.

So can symphathise...it's a head ache going back and forwards and project managing dealers sometimes but when you get how you want....it's worth it.

BTW all above can be done by you with Richard's awesome manuals of course. I'm just wanted to use the warranty as well.

Do it man. And then decide if it's a bike to keep.

We all have our limits on type of noise and mine was not sounding healthy (to me).
 
Thanks for your input.
Yes, I am prepared to see this through on my own at the moment. I will embark on investigation into the primary, clutch, timing and valves for starters today.
Richards manuals and input has been very helpful and encouraging in that it shows the work is really not a lot different than the rebuild work I have been doing on Norton's for 45 years. I have been building MV Agusta specials for the last while so am right up to speed on new electronics, fuel injection and have full kit of metric tools, special tools, a machine shop and a fabrication shop at hand.
I was telling my wife last night I have a love affair with this bike, even though there are few niggles and bumps in the road at the moment - I am determined to wrestle it to the ground. I know it is going to be worth it.
It is also good to know there is excellent knowledge and support out there at the touch of a keyboard.
 
Update report on investigation into the noisy engine and clutch issue.

Clutch basket is fine, not loose - I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used. I will clean the plates and reinstall with recommended oil.
Valve clearances were spot on - all at 2 1/4turns.
Timing chain is properly tensioned.
Split gear spring had stretched again in 1000miles.
Close look at the crankshaft primary gear shows the teeth have wear signs of hammering - this is also on the balance shaft gear. The clutch gear shows no wear signs.
I measured the clearance between the teeth on the primary gears - I can get a 10 thou feeler gauge in there. They also rock back and forward quite a bit. I am thinking this is the issue.
I have asked Norton Canada and Norton UK about replacing these with a new "matched" pair.
Will see what develops.
Your Norton as noisy?

Your Norton as noisy?

Your Norton as noisy?
 
bushman said:
I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used.

Damn! And here I went out and bought 6 quarts of that stuff hoping I could quiet down my primary case! Oh well - I can always use it in my Triumph Speedy or my old Norton Mk3. :roll:
 
bushman said:
Update report on investigation into the noisy engine and clutch issue.

Clutch basket is fine, not loose - I suspect the judder issue is the 20W50 oil that I used. I will clean the plates and reinstall with recommended oil.
Valve clearances were spot on - all at 2 1/4turns.
Timing chain is properly tensioned.
Split gear spring had stretched again in 1000miles.
Close look at the crankshaft primary gear shows the teeth have wear signs of hammering - this is also on the balance shaft gear. The clutch gear shows no wear signs.
I measured the clearance between the teeth on the primary gears - I can get a 10 thou feeler gauge in there. They also rock back and forward quite a bit. I am thinking this is the issue.
I have asked Norton Canada and Norton UK about replacing these with a new "matched" pair.
Will see what develops.
Your Norton as noisy?

Your Norton as noisy?

Your Norton as noisy?

Hi Bushman. Great info. The judder /graunch on my clutch take up improved slightly when the thicker oil was introduced but now after 1000 miles there is no real noticeable difference between the 10/40 silkolene semi or the 20/50 fully synthetic?? The judder/graunch is back.

I am considering reverting back to the 10/40 and wondering if washing the clutch plates would help?
Did you manage to save the primary case gasket?

I am a plant fitter by trade. Over the past 40 years I have rebuild a Varity of diesel petrol air hydraulic and electric motors but as most will tell you a plant fitters prized tool is his lump hammer. Fine tuning and precision is rarely practiced in my workshop so please bare with me.
Would that 10 thou be taken up when the engine was hot? The wear shown on the teeth in such a low mileage engine seems excessive and could be the cause of the hated chatter?? Have you by chance discovered what all 961 owners have been searching for, a solution to that chatter??

Good luck with the search.
Mark.
 
Interesting that your experience is similar to mine. Great initial result, but clutch worsening as time goes by.
I have noticed at a number of my clutch plates are blotchy and have dry patches, not all, about 1/2 or so.
It seems that the thicker oil may have trouble penetrating the clutch pack. Considering the original was in there before I changed, it almost seems that as it is used the plates are drying out, rather than oil replenishing. Maybe it is a tad too thick. Just a thought. The whole idea of using 20w50 was to help with the backlash gear noise - but at the cost of losing the clutch, not worth it.
Obviously some more research on clutch/gear oil.



Your Norton as noisy?
 
Here's a quick video of the gear rattle on my 961
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzJnx5ErOn0[/video]

This is without the split gear/spring, just showing how loose the gear meshing is
I measured 10 thou with a feeler gauge - seems a lot, I am thinking 2-3 thou, or maybe 5 at the most.

Has anyone had their gears changed for similar reasons?
 
Hello Bushman , I am hearing a similar sound as your gears are making when you rock them back and fourth. I just have my rear wheel off the ground on a stand and put it in first gear and just move the rear wheel back and fourth. I put my ear to the primary and I hear what you are seeing I think. I am approaching 5000 miles so my split gear spring is probably stretched out or maybe never good. Frankly If the spring only lasts 1000 miles when installed properly , that's not too good. So , short of pulling the primary off I can guess what you are seeing is normal and my bike does that too. As far as the chatter and gear teeth marks go , we should ask Richard-7 what his Dad saw when he disassembled his 17,000 mile engine.
 
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