will my MK3 pull a 24t front sprocket?

There is definitely a balance/trade off all right.....Better fuel economy/top speed at the expensive/compromise of reduced mid range throttle/acceleration response...final theoretical top speed is one thing...running out of road before you finally there is another...🤣
With a normal gearbox, the drop in revs on each up-change means it takes longer to get up to the revs where the motor really pulls hard. A Commando cam is similar in timings to a Triumph race cam. The power band usually does not really start take effed until you reach about 4000 RPM. And that is regardless of exhaust system and inlet tract differences.

Just because I had a normal gearbox in my Seeley, I tried to race with it. The bike was too slow everywhere. If you accelerate faster, you often reach a higher top speed before you run out of road. Close ratios give quicker acceleration. A road going Commando is as quick as an H2 Kawasaki two stroke - even with a normal gear box. Why would you want it to be faster ?
 
With a normal gearbox, the drop in revs on each up-change means it takes longer to get up to the revs where the motor really pulls hard. A Commando cam is similar in timings to a Triumph race cam. The power band usually does not really start take effed until you reach about 4000 RPM. And that is regardless of exhaust system and inlet tract differences.

Just because I had a normal gearbox in my Seeley, I tried to race with it. The bike was too slow everywhere. If you accelerate faster, you often reach a higher top speed before you run out of road. Close ratios give quicker acceleration. A road going Commando is as quick as an H2 Kawasaki two stroke - even with a normal gear box. Why would you want it to be faster ?
What gave you the impression this was about racing (again!) Al?
 
This is track talk so different world for those of us street riding. But I do know that what you weigh matters as well as
the profile of the countryside where you ride. 22 on the road can be just a tad too high if you live where it is hilly.
21 really is about right for an 850.
 
What you say might be true, but if the needles in the carbs are further onto the tapers because of the gearing, the mixture becomes richer, quicker so the bike won't accelerate as well as it might. If it leans-off more, the rate of acceleration should not change much.
I suggest just changing the gearing without changing anything else would be counter productive.
The OP is doing a TOP SPEED RUN, should be on the mains the whole way.
 
The OP is doing a TOP SPEED RUN, should be on the mains the whole way.
Indeed.

And to get maximum speed in top gear you do need to accelerate to the max in all gears.

The real question here is, can the engine pull more speed with a 24t sprocket on than with a smaller one.

Unless there has been power increase engine work done, my money is still on the answer being a ‘no’.

As to whether I’m right, and if so, whether a 22 or 23 would be better, we need someone to chime in who actually knows what a stock motor will pull…

Anyone…?
 
Indeed.

And to get maximum speed in top gear you do need to accelerate to the max in all gears.

The real question here is, can the engine pull more speed with a 24t sprocket on than with a smaller one.

Unless there has been power increase engine work done, my money is still on the answer being a ‘no’.

As to whether I’m right, and if so, whether a 22 or 23 would be better, we need someone to chime in who actually knows what a stock motor will pull…

Anyone…?
You are correct.
As mentioned above, my stock (but not "wheezed out") 850 can't pull a 22. I run it for the relaxed 80mph cruise.
No chance it will pull a 23.
But, I'm incapable of race tucking very good any more, so knees & elbows causing drag.
 
Try a wide open run with what you have on the street, Can it rev to 7000 and more?

A stock MK3 at some altitude will run out of wind at about 110 MPH so a 21 will be about right. Plan on about a 5 mph speed change per tooth.( if it can pull the gearing)

A 1/4 mile test .( drag race style) If you can do about 100 MPH it's a fast stock 850, if it can't, that is not good.

Practice your tuck and streamlining your body.
 
The attachment is a chart I use that is hopefully correct and useful for this discussion. It is a compilation of others with some additional math.

The shaded areas are simply a guess by me of what a stock 750 Combat or Mk1/2 850 Commando can't do with an average sized rider on a flat road at sea level on a windless 70 degree day. A stock 750 non-Combat or a Mk1/2A probably need one ore row up shaded.
 

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Here is a question -
How do you know when a Commando engine is not pulling as hard as it can ?

Because of the heavy crank, the motor always tends to spin-up at the same rate.
If you are trying to ride quicker up a mountain and the road twists and turns, it is not just a blast in top gear at full throttle.
You would normally race-change up and down through the gears. With higher overall gearing , you tend to wait longer for the revs to rise. The slides in your carburettor are often wide open and you might be using the main jets. The main jets are usually richer than the needles and needle jets, so the bike will not accelerate as fast as it would with the throttle partly closed, and the metering being done by the needles. The rate at which the needles' taper increases determine how quickly the mixture richens. If it richens too quick, the throtle response will be slower and your own response then makes the situation worse.
Under normal circumstances, most guys would not try using different taper needles. Speculating is never as good as actually trying.
My 850 Commando motor has as good throttle response as my short stroke 500cc Triumph motor ever had.
I use 6D Mikuni needles - the leanest - my overall gearing is absurdly high. With carburettor needles, most are the same diameter at the parallel part, the length changes to suit the diameter of carburettor - regardless of the brand of carburettor. My bike has Mk2 Amal carbs with Mikuni needles. I make my own needle jets out of brass hex using a combination of metric and number drills.
The needle jets and needles are critical for going faster.

When I first started racing the Seeley 850, It was quite funny. I felt my motor was gold-bricking - and it was. While I was riding the bike, it did not seem to matter what gear I used, the acceleration rate was always the same. When I raised the overall gearing the bike went faster. But close ratios and high overall gearing are very good. A standard gearbox is a handicap.

I would not normally say this, however back when I was racing regularly I alwars rode in Allpowers C grade races and I know what 'fast' is. In those days Kawasaki Z900s were the fastest - my Seeley 850 is faster. I think it is a bloody joke that something so horrible can be quick enough. It sat unraced for 20 years because I never believed in it.
 
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Just as point of reference, my MKIII with a 21T countershaft sprocket got in the mid/upper forties MPG on a summer road trip. By the following year I'd changed to a 2S cam (no other changes) and over the same route, similar weather and load, the bike got mid fifties MPG. I attribute this to the engine running closer to its torque peak, rather than way above it. Also with lower vacuum there is less pumping loss than at high vacuum. I changed to a hotter cam on my pickup with similar results. I did sacrifice some of that wonderful bottom end grunt, though. For that I have my G80 Matchless.
 
I suggest Commandos are simply detuned bullshit. Only about 2 Atlas 750s ever came to Victoria. The first broke its barrel flange off, so very few Atlases were sold. Bob Rosenthal bought one from Athol Paterson. He fitted Map rods and pistons to it, rebalanced the crank. I don't think he even uprated the gearbox. He was successful in A grade road races against the bikes of the early 70s. He became sponsored to ride TZ750 Yanahas.
Nortons built motorcycles with a lot of racing experience in their past.
All I have done with my 850 motor is undo the things which were holding it back.
I would never take the same approach with a modern motorcycle.
Some of our kids are racing Suzuki XR69 replicas. The frames are lookalike and the motors are GSX1100 Katana. The factory XR89 which Crosby raced in Europe was a GS1000 motor with a close ratio 6 speed box , two valves per cylinder with proper race cams.
If somebody tried to race an XR69 with a Katrana engine, close box, full race cams and separate pipes - they would probably almost immediately demolish themself.
As far as I have been able to determine, the only road-going Suzuki which has a close box is the GSXR750L The factories do not usually sell stuff which makes their competitors faster than the factory riders.
I suggest a Commando has more potential than many people might expect. An Atlas gives the clue to the Commando motors' potential. But a race bike usually makes a bad road bike. And converted road bikes do not make good race bikes.
 
I am going to use my street bike (mk3) to do my rookie run at El Mirage. Given the higher elevation of 2,840 ft. and the loss of power that presents, do you guys think it will pull a 24t front sprocket? I'm running an 18 in. rear wheel and the course is 1.3 miles.
Maybe some of the German forum members ? Could give you a better idea , or someone who has wound out on a autobahn.!
 
Maybe some of the German forum members ? Could give you a better idea , or someone who has wound out on a autobahn.!
I remember a few years ago on Top Gear some girl (who could really drive) lapping the Nurburgring in a Ford Transit van overtaking sports bikes on the outside! Impressive to watch.
The bikes must have had 24T!!
 
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