Which Electronic Ignition for a Mk3

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Hi Every One, I am two thirds of the way through a rebuild on a Mk3 which I had brought in pieces, previously it was fitted with an old Boyer but as I want the Electric Start to work without backfire problems I am going to purchase a new Ignition, having followed discussions on this forum for some time I am considering either Pazon or possibly Trispark [as they are both in my part of the world], if I go Pazon what are the advantages of the Altair over the surefire? if I go Trispark I am concerned about heat / vibration etc problems through having the whole unit in the timing chest and would appreciate your help to make my decision.
 
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Two pronged approach. Ditch the MKIII analog boyer in preference to the later ignitions that do not kick back upon low voltage spark scatter. I have not any personally gathered data ...sorry
second: Improve the charging system. You need to compensate for
1. bigger front sprocket / slower/ less charging
2. higher than original electrical consumption i.e. running headlight on..or any other higher than original electrical loads.
"Big battery" is IMO a failure to acknowledge the real problems encountered.
I was able to start my MKIII with a tiny atlas battery if it was kept charged!!!
only physics and math ...not magic
:)
 

Time Warp

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I bought 2 Altair's (and a Smart-Fire) but from some posts over the years there looked to be some suggestion that the cheaper (than the Altair) Sure-Fire had some advantages over it but do not recall what they were (Maybe the advance at start up)

I am not going to knock the Tri-Spark but at the time of looking there was no logical reason to buy a unit that put the electronics at risk just because you could.
 

ntst8

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Hi Al,
Lex has been running a Surefire with his Alton for a number of years, no issues to date.
I have been running an Altair with mine, also no issues.
The Altair wins the theory race since it has the idle stabilisation/anti kick back curve blip as for the TriSpark.
I had 1200km weekend recently where my Alternator was playing up. The electric leg became reluctant and ultimately couldn't turn the engine over due to low charge but didn't cause any kickback issues even when it was only just working. At that point i could still kick start the bike first kick at 11.8V static charge in the battery. So the Altair does live up to its low voltage performance claims.
The early Altairs (slotted rotor) which i have can be a pig to set up, very sensitive to rotor alignment. The later, winged rotor, versions i presume have cured that.
cheers
Iain
 
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Thanks Dave, Ian & Time Warp, Dave I had no Intention of running the Boyer [that's why I put this post up] though I will be runnig a RM23 stator with a Trispark Mosfit reg/rec but as I rarely ride in the city or at night so should be ok, Battery and leeds yet to be purchased probably go for a YTX series Battery, Ian & Time Warp thanks for the info its swinging me towards the Altair, Ian am still getting over my head injury so doing this as time and money allow.
 
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"At that point i could still kick start the bike first kick at 11.8V static charge in the battery. So the Altair does live up to its low voltage performance claims."
I have not been privy to the performance claims of the altair. Note the old analoge boyer still performed at 10.8V...only lower than that did the timing start jumping around.

The discussion revolves around the 200 amp draw on a battery when you "push the button". Any of them will usually work OK when YOU kick. Even points
 
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Pazon Altair , DD starter, and 3 phase alternator on my MKIII. It all works quite nicely. As DD says, improve the charging system. I've got a s Sparkbrite in place of the stock "Ignition" light and it provides way more information. With the 3 phase I comfortably run a halogen headlight all the time. While I do kick the bike I won't hesitate to push the button as well.

Pazon Altair gives a very smooth transition from idle to mid-range without enriching idle mixture.
 
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Please don't dismiss Boyer. The MK 1V model is fine. Do not use the MK 111 model Boyer on the MK 111 . ( Confused yet ? ) Ha.
Anyways ... I use the Boyer MK 1V on mine (see Avatar) , never an issue with it . Backfire device never ever has engaged.
Podtronics , Larger battery with larger cables , High output alternator , D.D. starter ,LED's everywhere. Just waiting on Matt's Sprag upgrade Kit at the moment.
 

gortnipper

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I think the previous issues with the TS ignition are pretty well in the past. I have had one in mine, along with their reg/rect for the past few years without issue, including my run from AKL to Akaroa. It's performance has been faultless for me, and never kicks back (unlike my old RITA). Which is good, since i have higher compression and a longer kicker.
 
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I installed a TriSpark on my '73 850 in '08. I removed the Boyer that was on the bike when I bought it in '06 and replaced it with the OEM points/AAU which better suits the engine, performance-wise. I had no intention of buying an e-ignition but when the Trispark came out I learned that it essentially duplicated the OEM advance curve. Based on that, I decided to give it a try and it's been on the bike and totally trouble free for 12 years now.

Bike also has a Shorai 18AH battery and an Alton Estart since '12.
 

baz

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I have no issues at all all with my Lucas Rita and Alton starter ,I realize the draw from an Alton may not be the same as a MK3 ?
But as a precaution on Komando's advice I later fitted a 12 v inverter
This is 8v to 48v input and a regulated 12v output supply to the ignition
It costs about £15 and will hopefully protect my sprag "fuse" that are fitted in the driveline of the Alton
If my Rita ever packs up I will buy an elecktronik Sachs ignition
 
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I run a Mk4 Boyer, DD starter and standard charging system on my MK111, with the quartz halogen headlight on at all times.
With a good 240CCA Motobatt battery, I have not had any issues.
So I would suggest if you have a later Boyer, it is as good as any out there!
 

gtiller

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Agree with the Tri-Spark comments.
I feel they are still getting a bad rap for the issue with the Honeywell component which was acknowledged and resolved a few years ago now.


I do, however feel that people are still having Tri-Spark issues, and feel that many of these boil down to a poor positive connection.
I would recommend that when fitting a Tri-Spark, people strongly consider running a positive from the Tri-Spark up to the coils instead of relying on the standoff post for the points cover.

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This is a key point of difference to the electronic ignition solutions that have a seperate 'black box' which is usually positioned up by the coils, and should have a great connection to positive.

Of course, not a problem with MK3s and bikes running retrofit electric starters, as these all have an excellent connection to battery positive via the heavy gauge cable that runs from the battery terminal to the crankcase.

...but something to think about.
 

gortnipper

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I would recommend that when fitting a Tri-Spark, people strongly consider running a positive from the Tri-Spark up to the coils instead of relying on the standoff post for the points cover.

This is a good suggestion. Next time i have my cover off i will definitely do this.
 

jimbo

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I have no issues at all all with my Lucas Rita and Alton starter ,I realize the draw from an Alton may not be the same as a MK3 ?
But as a precaution on Komando's advice I later fitted a 12 v inverter
This is 8v to 48v input and a regulated 12v output supply to the ignition
It costs about £15 and will hopefully protect my sprag "fuse" that are fitted in the driveline of the Alton
If my Rita ever packs up I will buy an elecktronik Sachs ignition
I have a Lucas Rita on my MKIII and never had an issue until the last rebuild, when I had backfires, ruining sprags. It turned not be a Lucas Rita problem after I found a nicked wire shorting out once in a while on the spinning rotor .That was caused by my inattention to detail during initial assembly . ( the photo shows the nick, then the wire was properly located away from the rotor)


DSC00322.JPG
 

HRD

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There is always Plan D, make your own.
This one uses a SR17C-J6 hall effect sensor and Scirocco spec 7 pin ignition module.

View attachment 19186
Hi
An interesting project,have you been successful in having it run? Just curious about that hall effect sensor, the data sheet shows
Operating Temperature -20°C to +85°C (-4°F to +185°F) .Will the +85°C be high enough ?
 

Time Warp

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Hi
An interesting project,have you been successful in having it run? Just curious about that hall effect sensor, the data sheet shows
Operating Temperature -20°C to +85°C (-4°F to +185°F) .Will the +85°C be high enough ?

I should not have posted that picture because it is not Norton.
That is for another distributor for my 1973 Moto Guzzi (which fired up instantly in my living room after its full rebuild ) I am waiting for a Bosch TCI coil to arrive so it is untested until then (The modification is the work of a chap from Norway, I just machined the needed parts for this one)
Heat would not be a case in that environment.

It might be a viable project for the early Norton's / Commando's that have the stock ignition unit placed and driven off the rear of the engine. (Instead of the camshaft not that this could not be installed there and being fairly robust sensor would be fine while retaining the stock AAU)

The proven Pazon Sure-Fire at under NZ$200 / US$140) with free world wide post would mean it is for the serious tinkerer only most likely.
 
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Instead of the camshaft not that this could not be installed there and being fairly robust sensor would be fine while retaining the stock AAU)
the AAU is one of the major reasons to replace the Ign. with an EI. it takes a beating from camshaft harmonics and slack in the timing chain.
 
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