When does a Norton Commando become a "Replica"?

Just curious what other owners' thoughts were on this. After reading many, many posts on all of the modern upgrades and modifications available to our Norton Commandos, it occurred to me that a person could spend a lot of money in the pursuit of reliability and uprated performance, and end up with a Norton that is maybe only 40% (percentage pulled out of my azz ) of the original factory parts. Everything from electronic ignition systems and modern carbs, to modern brakes and suspension and wheels, to major engine parts and peripherals like chaincases cut from billet material, and exhaust systems fabricated from stainless. Not to mention tin-ware like fuel tanks fabricated from aluminum and purchased from Australia. Does the Norton at some point become a "Kit Bike", and if so, what is the intrinsic value of such a bike when on the Mecum or Ebay auction block?

From other discussions on this forum I understand that many owners believe that these mods should just be considered as part of the "hobby," and cost be da_ned. I can understand that, especially if there are no intentions of ever selling it. But when/if it does become time to sell the bike (something else comes along or you die ), can the owner or owner's family expect to receive a major portion of his/her investment, or even more? Or, will all these "upgrades/mods" actually depress the sale value because most buyers are only looking for originality? And what might be the tipping point between it being a Commando or a replica? Just seemed to me that all these changes that we do, especially to the extreme, can negatively affect the value of our pride and joy. But again, on the other hand, it probably can just depend on what someone is willing to pay, right? (only problem then is finding that "someone") Just askin'...

A good home-built bike can fetch a lot; a not-so-good one, not so much.

A good original can fetch a lot; a clapped out one, not so much.

It all depends on sellers and buyers finding each other under the right circumstances.

good subject and very good poits GP
I had thought about this in the past comparing it to "Harley's? that have no actual Harley parts.
Just about everything except the frame can be purchased non genuine,
When I was manufacturing Slimline frames, I chewed over the idea of making Commando frames, oh so easy to make compared to Featherbed frames, but of course there is not really a market for Commando aftermarket frames.but then if one was to design a Commando frame with a good isolastic system then maybe......
hope I'm not to off topic.

Its well known that there's generally more surviving example of famous models than originally produced. So dude you've merely restated the multi-universe theory first brought to public awareness by likes of Marvel comic books in the '60's, about 4 yrs after math theorists-philosophers proved it had nothing to prevent it being so. Anything goes that ain't completely against laws of physics and everything possible must happen and will forever more. The subject line does not really match the text of the original poster so definitely baiting for cheap winter heat sources. If it ain't got a p/n from the Good Book then its un-Norton but most likely still very much a Commando. My poor special only retains the frame and outsides of Roaholders so definitely non Norton but for sure still a Commando. Best wishes resisting jumping the Norton fence and still keeping it going. So in some universe you are broken down in the rain with an aftermarket part no longer produced while in another world line ya just ride along forever on a pure stocker. When judges ask me if i'm representing myself i look at them funny with a cocked head and say "nope absolutely not i am here as myself not a representation" and they frown knowing exactly what I mean.

Being the owner of a bike that just kind of looks Norton- ish anymore but no longer has any part that has not been modified or upgraded I must say I have no regrets. I have never build a Norton to be of any value to anyone but myself.

I was rather happy when I entered my bike in the INOA concurs event in Canada some years back, in the modified class. They had real judging where they added points for everything that was not right. I got first place with a perfect zero. They could find nothing that was not modified. Jim

grandpaul said:

It all depends on sellers and buyers finding each other under the right circumstances.

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As with any deal of any type.

Seems an exercise in speculation to me. The important thing is building a bike that meets one needs. Building it for resale is somewhat of a folly because rarely can the cost be recouped. With luck as Granpaul said above...you find the right buyer and all are happy.

I could care less if I get back what I put into my bike...what it gives me is way better than money.

Upon further thought, I guess the ultimate answer is to save all the old parts and when/if you decide to sell/trade, then you can state in the ad that the bike comes with all of the original parts in a box. Assuming of course those parts were serviceable or rebuildable.

I suggest it all depends on values. I recognize a commando for what it is, not for what it should have been. I don't own a standard commando, however I love my Seeley 850 for what it is and I try to make it as true to the era as possible. To my mind a nut and bolt perfect commando is a rare and beautiful beast, and that is where it's value really lies. I've seen one or two which have been close to perfect, and I've always walked up and had good eyeful. It makes me feel great to know that perfect examples still exist. I think there are only two choices, either the bike is nut and bolt perfect and original, or it is fully modified in the extreme and preferably a racer. Half way is never good enough.

As far as I'm concerned anything that makes my 42 year old Norton, more useable and reliable is a bonus, it means that the bike will get used a reasonable amount.....going home on the back of a truck gets boring very quickly.

However don't expect that the cost of any upgrades to be reflected in the value of the bike, it seema that people will pay the same for a shiny artifact with a dodgy engine gearbox etc etc as for a bike that is in good mechanical condition.

I'm the original owner, I can do what ever I want. It's for the next guy to bring it back to original or not. That's when the debate begins.

Stock Commandoes off the dealer floor when new in the early 70s were....awful

leaked fluids, never idled worth a damn, hammering forks and a tail light that moved up and down 2 inches

most of us did everything we could to improve them after getting home from the dealership

it's just that not much at all was available to us 40 years ago

1up3down said:

Stock Commandoes off the dealer floor when new in the early 70s were....awful

leaked fluids, never idled worth a damn, hammering forks and a tail light that moved up and down 2 inches

most of us did everything we could to improve them after getting home from the dealership

it's just that not much at all was available to us 40 years ago

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Yes I agree with that, and with the advent of 3D metal printers coming down the pike, we'll be able to exactly recreate our own parts including any desired modifications: http://www.manufacturing.net/blogs/2014 ... with-metal

I think (my own opinion here), as these bikes begin to exceed 50 years old, originality becomes more important to their monetary value. At least that's what I see in the classic car market; original vs Resto-mod. But I realize it's a personal thing as to what is most important.... i.e., keeping it mostly stock (especially visually), or going whole hog on mods. And these bikes have known areas of weakness that cry out for improvement. Certainly the bike is the owner's canvas and everyone is allowed to create their own design.

I guess my question is, how much of the DNA (original parts) in a stock Norton can you remove and replace with modern designs and materials before it is no longer "a Norton"? Or is it always "a Norton" because it's all fitted onto a original isolastic frame....or not? :?

Larso I'm looking into both compostie/plastic and metal printers for a number of items on Commandos, both the Norton and un-Norton kind. Until about 15 yrs ago any modification that could not be reversed was looked down on rather strictly with strong adverse attitude. Most the mods discussed in public almost always had the disclaimer the factory parts were safely stored to sell with bike.
A pure factory Cdo can live and operate a long long time quite well in modern traffic but its endurance and messing and performance envelope is not as great as after market customization allows. I completely took the Norton out of my special but made amends by getting another with parts from the 'Good Book'. Racers of course were always the leading cheater element everyone including race inspectors routinely over look...

A perfect concours example is a wonderful thing...but would anyone actually ride it? Maybe.

The problem is if you want a nice bike that you can ride safely, with less maintenance there is little choice but to upgrade components that are lacking.

For me, I don't want a trophy sitting in my garage or trailered to shows...did that with a car years ago and it got old.

Our Nortons are still viable motorcycles and they deserve to be on the road and enjoyed IMO.

I have 3 bikes:
An original, low mileage, unrestored BMW /5
A restored to stock BMW R2

And my Norton-project, so far I have modified every part except the inner primary. A lot of the mods cannot be easily undone and I am well aware that I have killed the "collector-value" of this bike and I do not care! it's mine and it is being built they way I want it.

Vince

hobot said:

Larso I'm looking into both compostie/plastic and metal printers for a number of items on Commandos, both the Norton and un-Norton kind.

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Hobot, yes there is a lot of excitement and buzz going around about 3D printing using various materials and composites as you say. Jay Leno is using one right now, although at this point it's still a plastic model printer, but it can create molds for casting other materials. I'm sure he'll have no problem coming up with the US$ when the metal and composite printers become available to the every-man. Investment advisers like the Motley Fool are already predicting it will be a major game-changer in mass production and bring jobs back from China to the US. We'll see... I know I'm pretty excited about it

Unclviny said:

I have 3 bikes:
An original, low mileage, unrestored BMW /5
A restored to stock BMW R2

And my Norton-project, so far I have modified every part except the inner primary. A lot of the mods cannot be easily undone and I am well aware that I have killed the "collector-value" of this bike and I do not care! it's mine and it is being built they way I want it.

Vince

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I think that is a very reasonable attitude towards a Norton Commando, however some people also have that attitude towards a Manx Norton, or a G50 and 7R. Would you also try to 'improve' a 4.5 litre supercharged Bentley, or a P3 Alfa, or a Type 35 C Bugatti ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDQsbrNk28

Larso1 said:

Hobot, yes there is a lot of excitement and buzz going around about 3D printing using various materials and composites as you say. Jay Leno is using one right now, although at this point it's still a plastic model printer, but it can create molds for casting other materials. I'm sure he'll have no problem coming up with the US$ when the metal and composite printers become available to the every-man. Investment advisers like the Motley Fool are already predicting it will be a major game-changer in mass production and bring jobs back from China to the US. We'll see... I know I'm pretty excited about it

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Methods of producing 3D models of parts have been around since the early 80's with 3D Systems Inc. one of the early pioneers in the technology of stereolithography (SLA) which is still in use. 3D printing is a further evolution of the process. I have been involved in new product development since the early 70's, and with the advent of CAD and eventually Solids Modeling combined with CAM software, the evolution into modeling parts using the combination of CAD/CAM came out of the metal fabrication methods of the time (CNC, EDM and others).

There are still issues with resolution when producing parts with printing methods due to the material layering method along with variation in materials and controls. In the early days it was not hard to see the potential for manufacturing, but without secondary operations most mechanical parts made by investment casting or other methods to convert to metal are lacking in terms of tolerance and finish. The process to build the parts is realitively slow when compared to other methods for producing casting cores as well. This makes it difficult to compete with conventional production methods on most parts although for jewery and some medical and dental devices it can be more cost effective.

The real advantage has been the ability to model prototypes quickly for testing and refinement. In cases where a part can not be produced due to shape factor or some other reason, the process may be the only way to produce a given part.

Not sure that the "change the world" view of 3D printing is real in terms of manufacturing. It is a very valuable tool for product development and changed the way we design and prototype parts, but for manufactrring probably not as big as the hype.

Just a side note...there are methods for printing metal and ceramic using powered metal and sintering:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ZYKMBDm4M

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/vi ... ting+metal

What really worries me is that the 'throw away' mentality seems to be becoming endemic. There is a friend of mine who got quite upset when I criticised him for boring his 500cc Short stroke Manx out to 700cc so he could compete better in one of our stupid 'historic' road race classes. He said 'it is my bike, and I will do what I like with it'. It sounds OK if you say it quickly. If you think about what a Norton Manx actually is, when you modify it by making it bigger it is no longer a Senior TT bike. You have destroyed a bit of history - it clearly shows a lack of values. Like those old Bentleys, if you own a genuine Manx Norton you are only the custodian of it while you are alive. A genuine G50 is even rarer. The tragedy is that within probably the next thirty years the opportunity to find out what the best racing bikes were like in the fifties, will no longer be there.

This may be a little general, but if it is on the road today, much of it is probably not original.

Replica is not a good term in this regard. Maybe the question should be "when is a bitsa not a Norton" or "when is a Norton not a Norton" and if it's not, what is it. I think term "replica" might be applicable to models as in a Fastback replica, or an Interstate replica or swooshdaves PR replica. Maybe this is the authors intent.

I do not think there was anything on my bike that was original when i bought it (being a total bitsa) and I have done everthing to it on top of that. Frame with name plate, swing arm and cradle, triple tree, maybe, and some misc. nuts and bolt could be original to itself, but i don't think so.

Mine may or may not be a Combat relica, at least Combat like, but one thing is for sure, it s all Norton, at least in my eyes, and that's all the really counts.

How about Hybrid?