What's with my crooked Norton?!

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I think the most important thing to allow a bike to go down the road straight is having the front and rear wheels in vertical plane and in line. The in line part is easily adjusted, the in vertical plane is, hopefully, built into the frame design.
If you think about it a frame is just a device to hold the wheels fixed in that position. You could deliberately build a frame that ran at some angle to the line of wheels centres and still pilot it down the road OK.
It seems the simple straightforward way to build a bike is to keep the frame centre line on the wheel centre line, so most are done that way, but it isn't necessary. As far as the rear wheel sitting in the swing arms, the Commando swing arm may be symmetrical, but most swing arms are not. Some are even one sided, such as Ducati and Triumph Triples.
So to get the wheels in line just use a long straight edge. If there are differences in tire width front to rear, measure these amounts and allow for them.
Others no doubt have there own preferred method but here is mine
With the bike on the lift on it's wheels and lightly snugged down with support straps, place a heavy short block of 6"x6" or something similar beside the rear wheel and another beside the front wheel. Put some spacer pieces (1"wide works and is easy) on top of the rear block alongside the rear tire fore and aft at the widest part of the tire profile. Bump a long straight edge 7' long or more up against the spacers with light pressure so that the spacers are contacting the rear tire.
I use a wooden 1x3 or 1x4 or anything similar that is available, but it must sight dead straight. If you aren't accustomed to sighting things straight, check the straightedge with a string line.
The straight edge will lay on the blocks and project the line of the rear wheel forward onto the front wheel. Adjust the bars gently while measuring fore and aft spaces between the straight edge and the front wheel. When the front wheel is held parallel to the straightedge, the measurement in between tells you if the wheels are in alignment or not.
For example, if your bike has the same sized tires and rims front and rear, then the measurement of the space between the straightedge at the front wheel should be 1" (the rear spacer width) when the front wheel is held parallel (equal measurement fore and aft) to the straight edge.
If this measurement happens to be only 1/2", then the rear wheel must be adjusted via the chain adjuster on the nonsprocket side (assuming chain tension is already correct) in the appropriate directiuon to swing the rear wheel over such that the 1" space is attained at the front wheel.
A lot of words, but the whole process only takes a few minutes and makes the bike go down the road a whole lot better.
Apologies to those who already routinely do this procedure or some version of it, but it comes to mind that perhaps not everyone is aware of this?

I should add that, with the Commando, once the wheels are adjusted into alignment with the straightedge, they should also be sitting on the frame centreline, although personally I would not get too fussed if the rear wheel was 1/4" one way or the other off the centre line. Much more than that and perhaps things should be altered.
Deets suggested using a plumbob to plumb down to the rear tire from the rear hoop. This will work well as long as the bike is setup perfectly plumb and the rear hoop is not bent. The process of setting the bike up plumb is a bit fiddly and this is already a long post, so I'll leave that for later.

Glen
 
Thanx Glen for picking out the down dirty factory asymmetric compensations.

Common sense does not apply to motorcycler's. Scope of comprehension needs refining by looking into famous long run brands that issued rear tire offset from the front both chain drive and drive shaft. All's I know for sure is chain alignment has more priority than tire centering or getting the rear true to line of travel. Makes most common sense to me too to get tires squared to travel in line with the spine, but not if it messes with chain and sprocket life. Point being set the drum sprocket to align with the fixed plane of tranny sprocket then diddle the rim to match.

The finger feel at front for equal gaps method has to be calibrated by whether rim is still factory set or owner re-set.

Would be educational fun at rally to set up a few same model Cdo's, one all centered and others with various amounts off centered and mis-aligned and see if anyone could tell which was which. Wes and I have changed enough rear flats traveling to know its pretty easy to finger it or eye ball good enough to leave as is till next tire or chain.
 
worntorn said:
I think the most important thing to allow a bike to go down the road straight is having the front and rear wheels in vertical plane and in line. The in line part is easily adjusted, the in vertical plane is, hopefully, built into the frame design.
If you think about it a frame is just a device to hold the wheels fixed in that position. You could deliberately build a frame that ran at some angle to the line of wheels centres and still pilot it down the road OK.
It seems the simple straightforward way to build a bike is to keep the frame centre line on the wheel centre line, so most are done that way, but it isn't necessary. As far as the rear wheel sitting in the swing arms, the Commando swing arm may be symmetrical, but most swing arms are not. Some are even one sided, such as Ducati and Triumph Triples.
So to get the wheels in line just use a long straight edge. If there are differences in tire width front to rear, measure these amounts and allow for them.
Others no doubt have there own preferred method but here is mine
With the bike on the lift on it's wheels and lightly snugged down with support straps, place a heavy short block of 6"x6" or something similar beside the rear wheel and another beside the front wheel. Put some spacer pieces (1"wide works and is easy) on top of the rear block alongside the rear tire fore and aft at the widest part of the tire profile. Bump a long straight edge 7' long or more up against the spacers with light pressure so that the spacers are contacting the rear tire.
I use a wooden 1x3 or 1x4 or anything similar that is available, but it must sight dead straight. If you aren't accustomed to sighting things straight, check the straightedge with a string line.
The straight edge will lay on the blocks and project the line of the rear wheel forward onto the front wheel. Adjust the bars gently while measuring fore and aft spaces between the straight edge and the front wheel. When the front wheel is held parallel to the straightedge, the measurement in between tells you if the wheels are in alignment or not.
For example, if your bike has the same sized tires and rims front and rear, then the measurement of the space between the straightedge at the front wheel should be 1" (the rear spacer width) when the front wheel is held parallel (equal measurement fore and aft) to the straight edge.
If this measurement happens to be only 1/2", then the rear wheel must be adjusted via the chain adjuster on the nonsprocket side (assuming chain tension is already correct) in the appropriate directiuon to swing the rear wheel over such that the 1" space is attained at the front wheel.
A lot of words, but the whole process only takes a few minutes and makes the bike go down the road a whole lot better.
Apologies to those who already routinely do this procedure or some version of it, but it comes to mind that perhaps not everyone is aware of this?

I should add that, with the Commando, once the wheels are adjusted into alignment with the straightedge, they should also be sitting on the frame centreline, although personally I would not get too fussed if the rear wheel was 1/4" one way or the other off the centre line. Much more than that and perhaps things should be altered.
Deets suggested using a plumbob to plumb down to the rear tire from the rear hoop. This will work well as long as the bike is setup perfectly plumb and the rear hoop is not bent. The process of setting the bike up plumb is a bit fiddly and this is already a long post, so I'll leave that for later.

Glen

Thanks Glen, I guess I will have to do that. Seems very similar to what I have done putting up fences. :-)
 
The main thing is that when you check the rear wheel and the front wheel with a string line around them they come into alignment, even if the rear wheel must be turned a bit in the swing arm and the steering has to be turned a bit. If you don't achieve alignment, the handling can feel stiff when you ride around the twisty stuff. If your rear tyre is bigger than your front, you might have to space the string out from the rim at the rear of the rear wheel - I use a couple of matchboxes. If it is impossible to achieve alignment, you'll need to pull the rim over a bit on the hub by adjusting spokes - won't be easy.
 
The process of setting the bike up plumb is a bit fiddly and this is already a long post, so I'll leave that for later.

Glen

Actually it's a pretty quick process.
1) Remove the seat
2) Place a level across hoops
3) Place a shim or wedge under center stand foot if needed to level bike
4) String line or laser from steering center to center line of hoop will show if hoop and backbone are in line
5) Drop bob and string line over hoop in line with rear axle
6) Measure in to rim edge or center

It's kind of a down and dirty process but it will put you real close
Pete
 
I would definitely say the offset is wrong, especially since you didn't know about it when lacing...The correct offset can be measured off the bike...I believe it is 3/16" from centerline of hub to centerline of rim, with rim offset to the right...
 
if you're using a WM2 rim the edge of the rim should be flush with the machined face of the hub on the drive side.
 
Neilsen,

This is the end result of plumb bob off of frame tubes. It's not perfect but it's close enough for my type of riding. Once your off set is correct you can adjust your rear wheel straight to the frame by shooting a laser through the steering center, down the middle of the back bone and then adjust you axle adjusters putting the center of you rear wheel on the laser line

What's with my crooked Norton?!


Pete
 
I use 2 long fluorescent bulbs tight against the rear tire on the floor to check the trueness with the front and adjust as posted above.
 
green53 said:
I use 2 long fluorescent bulbs tight against the rear tire on the floor to check the trueness with the front and adjust as posted above.

Great idea. Up on a 6x6 would give a better idea across a larger diameter of the tire I would think.
 
gortnipper
Adjusting wheel offset by using spokes has no affect on chain line, all it does is get the wheel into the correct center position of frame. Axle spacers put the sprocket in the correct location, chain adjusters put the chain line straight. Hopefully when the front and rear wheels are in line correctly the chain is straight, if not you have to fudge a little.

green53
If center line of tires is not on center line of frame, using a straight edge or string line will not guarantee your wheels are in line with each other and the frame.

If everything else is correct on the bike the first thing that needs to been done is center the wheels to the frame and then get them in line with each other.

Pete
 
Yup only thing owner can do is tweak on spokes for wheel centering [unless shifting cradle for wider tire]. If front wheel centered in forks as designed, a string line bob along spine hung off loop center will certainly align rear in line of travel road follwing directly behind front tire print. There is more mass on DS so maybe rear a tad off to the LH might balance a bit better or resist L drift up road crowns more.
 
Deets55 said:
gortnipper
Adjusting wheel offset by using spokes has no affect on chain line, all it does is get the wheel into the correct center position of frame. Axle spacers put the sprocket in the correct location, chain adjusters put the chain line straight. Hopefully when the front and rear wheels are in line correctly the chain is straight, if not you have to fudge a little.

Yes, I get that offset does not affect chain line. I was more talking about using chain adjusters to align the wheel:

acotrel said:
The main thing is that when you check the rear wheel and the front wheel with a string line around them they come into alignment, even if the rear wheel must be turned a bit in the swing arm and the steering has to be turned a bit. If you don't achieve alignment, the handling can feel stiff when you ride around the twisty stuff. If your rear tyre is bigger than your front, you might have to space the string out from the rim at the rear of the rear wheel - I use a couple of matchboxes. If it is impossible to achieve alignment, you'll need to pull the rim over a bit on the hub by adjusting spokes - won't be easy.
 
gortnipper said:
Deets55 said:
gortnipper
Adjusting wheel offset by using spokes has no affect on chain line, all it does is get the wheel into the correct center position of frame. Axle spacers put the sprocket in the correct location, chain adjusters put the chain line straight. Hopefully when the front and rear wheels are in line correctly the chain is straight, if not you have to fudge a little.

Yes, I get that offset does not affect chain line. I was more talking about using chain adjusters to align the wheel:

acotrel said:
The main thing is that when you check the rear wheel and the front wheel with a string line around them they come into alignment, even if the rear wheel must be turned a bit in the swing arm and the steering has to be turned a bit. If you don't achieve alignment, the handling can feel stiff when you ride around the twisty stuff. If your rear tyre is bigger than your front, you might have to space the string out from the rim at the rear of the rear wheel - I use a couple of matchboxes. If it is impossible to achieve alignment, you'll need to pull the rim over a bit on the hub by adjusting spokes - won't be easy.

With my MK3 the chain lines up nicely with the wheels lined up via straightedge. The rear wheel is about 1/8" off the frame centreline on that particular bike.
The frame centreline wheel centre line relationship is maybe not as critical as getting the two big gyroscopes (front and rear wheel) in the same plane. For example, you could weld a sister tube alongside the main frame tube and cut the existing frame tube out. The new spine centre line would be shifted 3" over from the wheelcentreline, but as long as all the welds hold up, it would roll down the road and around corners same as before.



Glen
 
Glen,
I see what you are saying, but image this case. The front wheel is offset too far to the left and the rear wheel is offset too far to the right. When you run a string line or straight edge along the wheels it is possible to line them up by adjusting the chain adjusters but the reality is you will be rotating the handle bars slightly to the left and adjusting the front edge of the rear wheel to the left also. The end result is when you are running down the road the front wheel will have to be straight but the rear is cocked to the left causing it to "crab walk'.
Try this on a piece of paper. Draw a line to representing the center line of the bike. Now draw the front tire to the left of the center line and the rear to the right of the center line. Now see what needs to be done to get the edges of the wheel to line up. neither axle will be at 90 degrees to the center line of the frame. If both wheels are offset incorrectly to the same side you will get them to line up straight but off center, if they are offset incorrectly but on different side of the frame center line you will get a compounding error.


Pete
 
Deets55 said:
Glen,
I see what you are saying, but image this case. The front wheel is offset too far to the left and the rear wheel is offset too far to the right. When you run a string line or straight edge along the wheels it is possible to line them up by adjusting the chain adjusters but the reality is you will be rotating the handle bars slightly to the left and adjusting the front edge of the rear wheel to the left also. The end result is when you are running down the road the front wheel will have to be straight but the rear is cocked to the left causing it to "crab walk'.
Try this on a piece of paper. Draw a line to representing the center line of the bike. Now draw the front tire to the left of the center line and the rear to the right of the center line. Now see what needs to be done to get the edges of the wheel to line up. neither axle will be at 90 degrees to the center line of the frame. If both wheels are offset incorrectly to the same side you will get them to line up straight but off center, if they are offset incorrectly but on different side of the frame center line you will get a compounding error.


Pete
This is an area I have pondered quite a lot, although my conclusion may still be wrong. When building a Vincent Special frame a couple of years ago, I came to a realization that the idea of a frame centre line having to line up with the wheel centre line just isn't so, al least for a new build. It certainly doesn't hurt if the frame centre line runs through the wheels, and if the bike is laid out that way originally, then it should remain that way in order for the chain line to be correct etc.
As an aside, I believe it was mentioned earlier that changing the offset of the rear wheel doesn't change the chain line. Actually it does, because if the offset is changed from stock, then the rear axle must be swung to a new spot to keep it's centre on line with the front wheel. This sets the rear sprocket at an angle to the chain line, provided the stock offset worked to keep everything in line (it should)

But for a (hypothetical) new build, as long as the frame holds the wheels rigidly in plane, whether the line of the frame is on the centre line of the wheels doesn't matter. You can build an offset frame that would , as you say, "crabwalk" down the road, but from a riding position one just lines up the gyros to go straight, and off you go. Here I am speaking of a new build, I would not suggest having the wheels more than 1/4" off the center line for a Commando, mainly because a problem will show up with the sprocket alignment.
As an example of off centreline building , the rear wheel on my special is way off the centre of the swingarm centre line (it had to be,180 rear tire) but it is the best handling bike I own, better then my modern Triumph Daytona Sportbike. On top of that, the engine, which is a stressed member and major part of the frame of the bike, has no clear centre line. The engine crankcase joint is not on centre with the crank and even if it was, the engine itself is a very asymmetrical piece, so I'm not sure how one could define it's centre line. So the concept of centre line must line up with everything had to go out the window.
On that bike I made sure that there was equal weight either side of the wheel centre line and also made sure that the centre of the crank is on the wheel centre line so that all three big gyros are in line. It's really the gyros we ride on and steer about, the frame is just there to hold them.

Glen

Some left of centre thinking here

What's with my crooked Norton?!
 
Glen,

Wished your lived nearby. First because I would love to see your project. That looks like a beautiful build, way out of my skill set.
Second because I think we are saying the same thing, and a picture may be worth a thousand words, but being there in person is better yet. Looking at your bike I would bet that I you were to split it right down the center of the frame you would find that your rims are also split right down the middle. That's because they share the same center line and the axles are @ 90 degrees to CL of frame.
You comment about the cocked sprocket supports my theory. If the center line of the rims is the same as the center line of the frame (not swing arm) and the axles are at 90 degrees to that center line you wheels will be straight and down the center of the bike. No "crab walk", sprocket is straight. Checking with straight edge will work.
If your rims are not in the correct plane I agree with you that using the chain line is best bet. That way even if the wheels do not share the same center line they will track straight, no "crab walk".
The crazy thing is I'm sure I have ridden my bike with at least one, if not all of these problems and could not really see any difference except for a low speed head-wag w/ hands off of handle bars. When I rebuild my rims I went to great pains to put everything as correct as I could. I get no wobbles, bike tracks straight and I can ride hands off over bumps with no head shake.
Hope it stops raining tomorrow, too much computer time today.
Pete
 
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