wet sumping

gtsun · Nov 19, 2014

Problem is that if left for very long the oil goes past the seal and into the primary case... No big deal if your aware of it and drain both before starting but if you don't, I've heard the pressure can blow the crank seal out of the older ones..

nortonspeed · Nov 19, 2014

Diver3284 said:
The great Mick Hemmings has owned, built, raced, developed and sold big twins for more than 50 years. He makes, recommends, and sells his own anti wetsump valve in both in-line and fixed versions. It works. That's good enough for me. 8)

As the great Mick Hemmings has no website what would his own anti wet sump valve look like ?? Pictures please :!:

bill · Nov 19, 2014

there is another great and well known norton builder that WAS using them on his builds and sold them but does not sell or use them after a few engine failures along with another well known engine builder that will not sell or use them. some times old dogs need to learn new tricks. think of this as a water well, what happens if it losses it prime. no water and it is the same with a norton oil pump but a lot more costly.

Diver3284 said:
The great Mick Hemmings has owned, built, raced, developed and sold big twins for more than 50 years. He makes, recommends, and sells his own anti wetsump valve in both in-line and fixed versions. It works.

)

JimC · Nov 19, 2014

If you have an oil pressure gauge and install an anti-sump valve in the intake line you'll be pretty alarmed when you see the hot oil pressure at idle. ZERO! That was my experience, with a new Andover oil pump. After that I completely dismissed ever putting anything in the intake line of the oil pump, ever again. IMO, putting something in the intake line to stop wet sumping is like stopping the blood to the heart to stem a bleeding wound.

As for the AMR modification, the oil pump itself needs to be sealed with "O" rings, as well as the spring loaded ball installed at the output. Wet sumping occurs both as an external pump leak and leaking through the gears internally. Gotta' get 'em both.

bill · Nov 19, 2014

as I stated it is NOT 100% as a lot depends on just how tight the shafts fit in the oil pump. the AMR mod machines the shafts and installs O rings to stop oil from migrating through the pressure side to the scavenge side than into the sump. IMHO O rings were not meant for this application and would be much better with some type of sealing ring ala automatic transmissions.

worntorn said:
Bill, it sounds like the AMR mod is very safe( so is a manual valve with failsafe) but maybe not always effective.
Was going to try it some time ago then read this from Matt Rambo

by CNW » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:55 amWe used the modification that AMR offers for many years. The first 30 bikes or so have it installed in the timing cover. These were done by another guy, I cant think of his name, that later gave the rights to AMR so they could offer the modification. I found the results very inconsistent with some bikes not sumping a bit and other draining down to the crank in a very short time. This was frustrating since I didnt know until the customers started reporting back to me after they took delivery of the machines. I know that some people dont mind the wetsumping but I dont want to tell my customers that they have to drain the oil out of the crank and pour it back into the oil tank before going on a ride.

worntorn · Nov 19, 2014

JimC said:
If you have an oil pressure gauge and install an anti-sump valve in the intake line you'll be pretty alarmed when you see the hot oil pressure at idle. ZERO! That was my experience, with a new Andover oil pump. After that I completely dismissed ever putting anything in the intake line of the oil pump, ever again. IMO, putting something in the intake line to stop wet sumping is like stopping the blood to the heart to stem a bleeding wound.

Jim, here you must be referring to a spring and ball type check valve. There is zero extra resistance in a 3/8" dia. clear through manual valve. No different than the piece of 3/8"rubber hose it replaces.

Glen

JimC · Nov 19, 2014

Glen, I am stating my experience with inline check valves. With hot oil the pump did not create enough suction to overcome the spring tension at idle. I even tried cutting a few rounds off the spring. Commandos are notorious for delivering very low oil pressure at idle with hot oil. In my case, with a new pump and a fresh rebuild, I was getting less than 5 psi, (my gauge showed zero) at ~800 rpm. The resistance of the spring in the oil intake line was too much for the pump to overcome.

Do you run an oil pressure gauge with an inline check valve?

Anonymous · Nov 19, 2014

worntorn · Nov 19, 2014

JimC said:
Glen, I am stating my experience with inline check valves.....

Do you run an oil pressure gauge with an inline check valve?

I'm not using an inline check valve, and from your observations about pressures, don't think I ever will.
The valve I am using is shown with description near the top of page two of this thread. The ignition key is held in it when off. Can't get her going without first turning the oil on. No extra restriction when it is on.

Glen

DogT · Nov 19, 2014

I'm one of the feed inline ball valve types with the ignition defeat. This is a pic before I wired the ignition through it.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. No one has mentioned the IronJohns ball valve switch which is nice if a bit pricey.

JimC · Nov 19, 2014

DogT said:
I'm one of the feed inline ball valve types with the ignition defeat. This is a pic before I wired the ignition through it.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. No one has mentioned the IronJohns ball valve switch which is nice if a bit pricey.

Absolute beauty and simplicity. What could ever go wrong?

DogT · Nov 19, 2014

The micro-switch could go bad, so you take the seat off and put the wires back on the ignition switch like they used to be. Go home and replace the switch.

Actually I've got a prox switch and rare earth magnet which would be a bit more elegant and maybe more water resistant, but it would require a relay to switch the ignition. The prox switch won't handle the ignition current. Glenn has a set, I sent it to him.

kerinorton · Nov 20, 2014

DogT said:
The micro-switch could go bad, so you take the seat off and put the wires back on the ignition switch like they used to be. Go home and replace the switch.

Actually I've got a prox switch and rare earth magnet which would be a bit more elegant and maybe more water resistant, but it would require a relay to switch the ignition. The prox switch won't handle the ignition current. Glenn has a set, I sent it to him.

You need a relay when you use a micro switch. I am thinking now of doing the same.

DogT · Nov 20, 2014

10A 12V DC micro-switches are available. No relay necessary unless you feel the need, plus it's not switching during current draw like a headlamp relay. I've been using a 5A switch and no problems so far. I've got the number for the 10A somewhere. They're available from Mouser for a few bucks each, as well as the 30A relays. I think the early ignition has a max 7A draw and that's probably not for long. I've never measured it, so all I'm going on is what Pazon says.

DogT · Nov 20, 2014

Mouser part 653-V-102-1A4, Omron V-102-1A4 and since it's really not switching under load, the contact ratings are 24 A. The V-21 series are rated at 50 A if you want overkill.

worntorn · Nov 20, 2014

Dave, I believe the Pazon is just 7 watts draw at tickover, a bit more at speed.
This is just over 1/2 amp at 12 volts. Your switch should last a few lifetimes.

Glen

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