wet sumping

Just jerking your chain Glen, your key fob valve handle is a tiddy fail safe solution, if tedious to create - I had to stretch reality to come up with any counter points to it.

@WornTorn, that is absolutely awesome, hats off to you for that.

A nice simple one I saw was a gas ball valve done with a small chain going to a battery cut off switch. This was wired so that it killed the mag when the key was out, couldn't put the key in without turning the valve on.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group ... SWITCHBATT

Another fan of the valve and key solution here. Worntorn's solution is beautifully done but if you are a lazy bastard like me just get a valve that has the handle poking up vertically when closed and hang the ingnition key ring over that when using it. Can't start the bike without removing it and it's only used in the garage anyway. There will be enough oil in the sump to conserve the engine even if gravity takes a second or two to send more oil to the pump - don't forget there will be a few seconds between opening the valve and being ready to kick it over.

I think we tend to worry too much about this - I have 3 bikes that don't have any kind of pump and rely entirely on splash lubrication from an occasional shot of oil running down a pipe from tank to crankcase. Two are around 100 years old and the other is 90 years old and they still run fine! My 1925 Indian Scout has 2 oil feeds from the tank - one from an auxiliary hand pump and one to an oil pump and both have factory fitted valves - no key so I just have to remember as the original owners did. I know plain bearings need a pressurised feed to run on but there's plenty of oil down there to tide it over for a few seconds if necessary!

I don't have a key or a battery on my Norton I just put a valve on my bike as since owning a new Thruxton to take over everday riding the Norton is sitting for sometime while do other work on it, but this is what I do, but I only turn it off if the bike is going to sit for 2 weeks or more, when it was ridden everyday I never had any problems with wet sumping, but if I plan on going out on it I will open the valve a day before and when out I just connect the laylard when parked even if its still turned on, just incase some arse closes it.



Ashley

There certainly are a myriad of solutions for getting the skin off of this cat.
Here are a couple of K.I.S.S. options:

I like the orange type a lot. Not sure why it hasn't been talked about more often. Probably depends on the type of hose as to if it will permanently crimp the hose and affect flow.

Ta.

needing said:

I have a Combat so wetsump is not so much of a problem.
Fitted a wet sump valve anyway simply because an anesthetist fellow gave me one that he had received as a sample.
It is such an overkill but a finer machined bit of stainless steel I have not seen for a long time.
The brass Pirtek barb fittings I added to plumb it look so agricultural by comparison.
It is a Hy-Lok 700 series CV3-F-6N-S316.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d251qt0pgci5a ... 1.pdf?dl=0

Click to expand...

A fine example of a check valve. It is gross overkill... 3000 psi for an application requiring about 1/2 psi if it is installed in feed line between oil tank and manifold at timing chest.
What is cracking pressure? This installation could be a disaster waiting to happen. Be sure to check your return oil flow each time you start engine.

Slick

Ta.

I agree the wet sumping is a real pain in the butt. I use to have to drain anywhere from 12 oz to 30 oz out of the sump before every ride. That's ridiculous.A pal of mine that worked at a well know Norton rebuilding shop told me that they were having problems with those anti wet sumping valves and not to use one . Not being a Norton expert, I just put a brass ball valve on my oil line and a red flag on my ignition key as a reminder to turn the valve on. It's simple and it works!

Whose legs want to try to start bike with a crankcase filled with oil? What about all that smoke in the driveway as it clears itself out. Here's my valve.....http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... a65f3c.jpg

Since I was not 100% positive of remembering to turn on a valve I went with the AMR modification.

There are some good methods of making the bike inoperable unless the valve is turned on.
1. Ignition cutout- most common method. There is a very small % chance the switch could malfuntion, but this malfunction would have to coincide with a memory lapse to matter. % probability is likely almost nil.

2. Lever sticks out in way of kickstart, kickstart bikes only. A bit on the ugly side, but seems foolproof.

3. Ignition key fob/lever. Also foolproof as long as only the one key with fob is used, second emergency key is taped to bike in hidden location. With oil valve off, key is trapped in valve. Oil valve on, key comes out.

Any valve that requires a spring to compress and pressure to act in order for the valve to open also carries some risk, quite a bit of risk actually. There is no failsafe with that.
I feel safer with one of the above manual type valves that include a failsafe. Obviously lots of opinions on this one, all the way from don't need it to those that fit a manual valve with no failsafe and hope they won't ever forget!

Glen

this is only true if it is on the suction side. if your theory was true than you would see a lot more trouble with oil pressure regulator valves also.

worntorn said:

Any valve that requires a spring to compress and pressure to act in order for the valve to open also carries some risk, quite a bit of risk actually. There is no failsafe with that.


Glen

Click to expand...

Any valve that requires a spring to compress and pressure to act in order for the valve to open also carries some risk, quite a bit of risk actually. There is no failsafe with that.

Click to expand...

As opposed to the risk of forgetting to place the warning flags, tags or the Gyro Gearloose components I've seen here failing? I'll take my chances with a spring loaded ball on the output side of the pump. Worst case failure would be the spring failing, in which case wet sumping might once again occur.

Agreed flags etc perhaps not ideal, but no one has reported any problem here using any of the three methods I listed.
Some of the spring loaded valves have given trouble as I recall from way back.
Wouldn't the worst case with a spring loaded valve be a valve that jammed and failed to open' even under pressure?
Does the AMR valve stop wet sumping completely?
My MK3 setup does not, but it does slow the process down quite a lot.

Glen

Old 69 bike started up after 3 weeks oil looked ok on sight tube 2 kicks no prob no check valves nothin to switch on, running great no wet sumping at all. But I did leave my peacocks on after my last run on 71 petrol every where rubber pipe US it did start up but I think I'll get me some fancy clear fuel pipe. Nobody's perfect!

J

the ones that have given trouble are on the suction side. like I have stated on here a number of times it is a very bad idea to put this on as all you need is an air pocked in the pump and kaboom.

worntorn said:

Some of the spring loaded valves have given trouble as I recall from way back.

Glen

Click to expand...

again the pressure side is the best place to do this. the AMR mod is a 5/16 hole with a 1/4 ball and spring. tell me how this can stick!! the MK3 is a piston and when it sticks it is in the open position so all it causes is an increase in wet sumping. on the MK3 you can increase the clearance on the piston as the seal is at the pump output not the piston to bore to stop it from sticking.

neither one does not totally stop the issue because there other routes the oil can take through the pump BUT IMHO it is a lot better than taking a chance with the ones that are put in the line from the tank, better yet ride it more often and it is a non issue

worntorn said:

Wouldn't the worst case with a spring loaded valve be a valve that jammed and failed to open' even under pressure?
Does the AMR valve stop wet sumping completely?
My MK3 setup does not, but it does slow the process down quite a lot.

Glen

Click to expand...

Bill, it sounds like the AMR mod is very safe( so is a manual valve with failsafe) but maybe not always effective.
Was going to try it some time ago then read this from Matt Rambo

by CNW » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:55 amWe used the modification that AMR offers for many years. The first 30 bikes or so have it installed in the timing cover. These were done by another guy, I cant think of his name, that later gave the rights to AMR so they could offer the modification. I found the results very inconsistent with some bikes not sumping a bit and other draining down to the crank in a very short time. This was frustrating since I didnt know until the customers started reporting back to me after they took delivery of the machines. I know that some people dont mind the wetsumping but I dont want to tell my customers that they have to drain the oil out of the crank and pour it back into the oil tank before going on a ride.

As a newbie on this site it in not my place to make pronouncements. Everybody recognises the problems of wet sumping on the Norton big twins, and, as this thread demonstrates, there are a myriad of solutions.

The great Mick Hemmings has owned, built, raced, developed and sold big twins for more than 50 years. He makes, recommends, and sells his own anti wetsump valve in both in-line and fixed versions. It works.

That's good enough for me. 8)

My 750 would drain into the case fairly quickly but to be truthful the thought of the bottom end full of oil if the bike was left for an extended period is a kind of plus to me.
The sump plug reed valve should make for easy oil tank return.
If you had to physically remove and return it to the tank might be another matter.