Wet sumping
- Thread starter nortonisthebest
- Start date
- Status
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2013
- Messages
- 21,594
texasSlick said:
It's just a drain bung Slick. It's no more or less than any of the other drain bungs, blanking set screws etc on the engine! Maybe its not as elegant a solution as the AMR mod, but its a lot better than some of the less than elegant DIY plumbing / potential engine killers that folk seem to like!
Yet I still think you are right, if I understand correctly, the AMR mod puts a spring loaded ball on the output side of the pump in the same manner as Norton did on the mk111, is that correct?
If so, does anyone on here know of a UK based provider of this service?
At present, with its new AN pump, mine does not appear to show any such signs of excessive wet sumping. S my plan is to keep my fingers crossed that this will continue. But it would be nice to know of a UK based AMR equivalent if it doesn't.
DogT
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2009
- Messages
- 7,394
A switch so if the lever comes off the switch, the ignition shuts off, plus can't start it with the lever closed. Simple. I've never had the lever even start to close. The whole assembly on mine is not that apparent. Each to their own.texasSlick said:
Dave
69S
SteveA
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2011
- Messages
- 3,380
Fast Eddie said:
Thats the thing, if Norton had used a ball on the MKIII it might have worked. They didn't the used a stupid little steel cylindrical valve, that just stuck open in its alloy hole in the timing cover, no way would the spring close it.
And as far as I know AN now only sells MKIII style timing covers with the original style valve fitting!
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2013
- Messages
- 21,594
SteveA said:
Don't know that Steve!
Can anyone advise what the AMR mod has in this respect?
Fast Eddie said:
Might be best to contact AMR re: MKIII mod.
mail@amr-tucson.com
Phone: 520-303-4394
800-849-6970
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 246
I use a brass shut off valve sourced from Mc Master/Carr Catalogue to fit my oil lines. Wet sumping is a thing of the past. I have a red flag on my ignition key to remind me to turn it on. This has been the best mod I've done to my bike since rebuilding it........Also I use a oneway pressure valve on my breather and run a hose back to the oil tank for any overflow. Result no oil leaks......Skip
texasSlick
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2013
- Messages
- 4,258
For reference, info on the the AMR modification can be found at:
http://www.amr-of-tucson.com
Maybe others can advise of someone over the pond who does similar mod.
The mod involves a spring loaded ball check valve on the output side of the oil pump, and O ring seals in the pump itself to prevent oil leakage thru the pump direct to the sump.
My objection to the suggestion to tap the timing case for a drain is: .... a tool free fingers only spigot would be ugly, and a simple drain plug would not be convenient, as it would require tools, and moreover would likely deposit a handful of oil on you as the plug came free. Perhaps a socket head capscrew, with a nylon or Dowty seal might keep ones hands clean as it could be held captive on an Allen key, and the key could be kept handy somewhere on the bike. This solution would at least be appealing to those who find a manually operative valve with some 'not to be forgotten' method to ensure oil delivery, not sufficient to give them peace of mind.
Take your pick.....your choices are:
a) put up with wet sumping (unless you are fortunate to have a pump which does not leak down between your riding intervals)
b) install a manual valve with a switch or other device to eliminate the forgetful factor
c) install an automated valve in the oil feed line....definitely not recommended by me and many others.
d) get the AMR mod. ....my choice
e. drain the sump if too much oil has leaked down
f). risk a seal blowout if too much oil has leaked down, and you do not drain sump.
g) ignore the wet sump issue, refuse to admit it exists, and post herein that wet sumping is a non-issue.
Slick
http://www.amr-of-tucson.com
Maybe others can advise of someone over the pond who does similar mod.
The mod involves a spring loaded ball check valve on the output side of the oil pump, and O ring seals in the pump itself to prevent oil leakage thru the pump direct to the sump.
My objection to the suggestion to tap the timing case for a drain is: .... a tool free fingers only spigot would be ugly, and a simple drain plug would not be convenient, as it would require tools, and moreover would likely deposit a handful of oil on you as the plug came free. Perhaps a socket head capscrew, with a nylon or Dowty seal might keep ones hands clean as it could be held captive on an Allen key, and the key could be kept handy somewhere on the bike. This solution would at least be appealing to those who find a manually operative valve with some 'not to be forgotten' method to ensure oil delivery, not sufficient to give them peace of mind.
Take your pick.....your choices are:
a) put up with wet sumping (unless you are fortunate to have a pump which does not leak down between your riding intervals)
b) install a manual valve with a switch or other device to eliminate the forgetful factor
c) install an automated valve in the oil feed line....definitely not recommended by me and many others.
d) get the AMR mod. ....my choice
e. drain the sump if too much oil has leaked down
f). risk a seal blowout if too much oil has leaked down, and you do not drain sump.
g) ignore the wet sump issue, refuse to admit it exists, and post herein that wet sumping is a non-issue.
Slick
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 246
Here's the crankcase breather I'm using on my 73 750
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... 424493.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166 ... 424493.jpg
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,075
Actually the ancient greeks proved the world was round (and determined its diameter) more than 2000 years ago. However, they did not discover wetsumping. 
Nobody denies Wetsumping exists, whether it's a PROBLEM as opposed to a quirk is the issue. Since I have never heard of Wetsumping causing an engine to wipe out its bearings whereas there are many accounts of some of the alleged solutions doing exactly that, it seems to be pretty clear where the danger is…and it's not in wetsumping.
Nobody denies Wetsumping exists, whether it's a PROBLEM as opposed to a quirk is the issue. Since I have never heard of Wetsumping causing an engine to wipe out its bearings whereas there are many accounts of some of the alleged solutions doing exactly that, it seems to be pretty clear where the danger is…and it's not in wetsumping.
mike996 said:Actually the ancient greeks proved the world was round (and determined its diameter) more than 2000 years ago. However, they did not discover wetsumping.
Nobody denies Wetsumping exists, whether it's a PROBLEM as opposed to a quirk is the issue. Since I have never heard of Wetsumping causing an engine to wipe out its bearings whereas there are many accounts of some of the alleged solutions doing exactly that, it seems to be pretty clear where the danger is…and it's not in wetsumping.
A very erudite post!
Two things I'd advise:
Don't piss into the wind, and don't put anything between the oil tank and oil pump. Both will cause regret.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Hm, w/o a fail safe shut off they all will wet sump but only the ones with pre-existing fault will ever show any engine oil in the primary. So likely as much got in primary while running and blamed on later excessive wet sump. I'm habbitual excessive wet sump starter and can tell condition of ring and sump level by watching exhaust for hints of smoke and how long took to show up and how long to last, but by golly on 2 Combats done this way never saw the red ATF polluted unless a mount stud backed out as ain't had a crank seal fail so far in my mild scope of use. When I take Trixies barrels off to reseal i'll put oil in and turn crank to get sense of the Goldie Locks amount then ponder how to always attain-retain that before shut off or just catch the over flow and put back in tank w/o bending under the engine.
When does most wet sump occur? The first few hours of cool down or the days that follow?
When does most wet sump occur? The first few hours of cool down or the days that follow?
Nater_Potater
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2013
- Messages
- 1,342
Being both lazy and cheap, I go with either E or G as the mood strikes me:
Nathan
Seriously though, this hasn't been a problem throughout the summer as it's ridden at least once a week, and the sump will be drained just prior to the spring ride no matter what. However, I look forward to the day that I add the AMR mod.texasSlick said:
Nathan
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 18,978
Hm, how much is too much and does that vary with model or the hours of use? Would be neat to make a sight glass or fiber optic to video the action. There's an old song about views of wet sumping.
Now some they do and some they don't
And some you just can't tell
And some they will and some they won't
With some it's just as well
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUIW4pt2JMs[/video]
Now some they do and some they don't
And some you just can't tell
And some they will and some they won't
With some it's just as well
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUIW4pt2JMs[/video]
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2013
- Messages
- 21,594
texasSlick said:
I think that list is a nice summary Slick.
Regarding the timing cover bung idea, I totally agree that any kind of external tap would be pretty hideous! A simple Allen screw with dowty seal or copper washer wouldn't be though. I guess that if a bike wet sumps over night and needs draining every ride, this would be a tiresome thing to unscrew etc as you say. If however, its a bike that only wet sumps after several weeks of down time, maybe its not so bad.
One thing missing off of your list is the option of fitting a Comstock sump breather. These are very effective at expelling excess oil back to the tank quickly along with the breathing gases. Again, whether or not this would suffice with a seriously incontinent bike or not, I'm not sure.
As another poster has said, the general debate should not be whether or not wet sumping occurs, but whether or not it is actually an issue... In a 'healthy engine'.
And its the 'healthy engine' bit that often gets missed on these debates. It still seems to me that if a bike is a serious wet sumper, it is indicative of 'something' being wrong / out of spec. And that 'something' is the oil pump. So it would seem to me that the first thing anyone with a serious wet sumper should do is to replace the oil pump with a new one of known good brand / quality.
If the bike still wet sumps too much, then they refer to your list, albeit with the addition of the Comstock breather as an option.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 358
I drain the sump everytime. I would ride once a fortnight.
My real concern is, with modern electronic ignition, on more than one occasion, a cold and well tickled motor has fired up while I have been prodding it gently to TDC.
If a motor started with a sump full of oil, its got to go somewhere, fast. Crank seal maybe.
My real concern is, with modern electronic ignition, on more than one occasion, a cold and well tickled motor has fired up while I have been prodding it gently to TDC.
If a motor started with a sump full of oil, its got to go somewhere, fast. Crank seal maybe.
Fast Eddie
VIP MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2013
- Messages
- 21,594
Nortiboy said:
That's the beauty of the Comstock breather, the path of least resistance for the oil would presumably be back to the tank, via the breather, rather than past the seal.
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,075
Nortiboy said:
My 850 has started in exactly that way many times with it's Alton Estart. No blown seals, no nothing. With the Estart, I can't tell any difference in how the bike starts/acts regardless whether it was started yesterday or 4 months ago. If it was going to be a seal-blowing issue, it would certainly blow it much easier with Estart than with kick. The crankcase is not sealed in any case - there is a breather and it's not as if the crankcase is totally full of oil with that oil under direct compression like a hydraulic system. Any resulting compressed air from the pistons moving downward just exists via the crankcase vent.
OTOH, my current experience is with the '73 850 - Perhaps the design of the oem breather, which changed as the bikes were in production makes a difference in how earlier bikes react as opposed to later bikes? My original 71, which I bought new and rode for 8 years had no known issue with WS-ing. I'd bet money that no one back then ever heard of it. But, of course, we rode the bikes a lot more than most of us do now - my Commando was more or less daily transportation so WS-ing would never have shown up anyway.
I can understand the concern that some folks have about starting an engine when the oil tank level is below the feed tube though, as has been noted, there is plenty of "splash oil" available for lubrication until sufficient oil is returned to the sump for normal operation. But I have to admit that looking in the tank and seeing oil below the feed tube makes me uncomfortable…
- Status
