Wet sumping

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nnnrh said:
Can someone explain to me the BIG problem with oil leaking back into the sump, I have never heard of it being a problem except on this forum. As far as I understand and experienced, if it has sat for a while you just start her up and the oil goes back to the tank, end of problem.
Click to expand...

The NO problem is if a small amount of oil is in the sump....then start 'er up and oil goes back to tank.

The SMALL problem is if a large amount of oil is in the sump....then start 'er up and clouds of blue smoke appears. This problem is worse if some Honda guy is watching.

The LARGE problem is if a major amount of oil is in the sump...then start (or try to), and the main seal blows out. Then the SMALL problem occurs.

The MAJOR problem is if all the oil is in the sump...then if you start and if you survive the LARGE problem, the engine runs without oil until a sufficient quantity returns to the tank, meanwhile the SMALL problem occurs, but that SMALL problem has now become relative to the others, a NO problem.

The BIG problem? Take your pick of the above....it depends mostly on your frustration level.

Slick
 
nnnrh said:
Can someone explain to me the BIG problem with oil leaking back into the sump, I have never heard of it being a problem except on this forum. As far as I understand and experienced, if it has sat for a while you just start her up and the oil goes back to the tank, end of problem.
Click to expand...

IMO that is correct and I do not and have never found Wetsumping to be a problem at all. There are folks that say a full sump can cause a seal to be blown out on starting but I have had a full sump and even the Alton E-start, which spins the HECK out of the motor hasn't managed to cause that to occur even after 4 months of sitting.

But, as has been debated over and over (and over and over and over and over and...) many folks see it as a big problem. SO...you get to decide for your own comfort level if the "problem" or the "solution" is the bigger hazard. :)
 
To me it's not so much a problem as an irritant that can be simply cured.
 
kerinorton said:
ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF WET SUMPING IS ALSO THE OIE MIGRATES INTO the primary case as well. If you ride with the primary case overfill, it ends up on your rear chain and everywhere else. Both my bikes will do this . The high milage 850 now has a manual valve in the feed line which I turn off if I am not going to ride the bike more than once a week. The 750 which has now just done 14,000 miles, does wet sump, but slowly so it takes about a month or 2 to really fill the sump and the primary case. I have another valve ready to fit to that bike a s well.
I am sure the oil lines are 3/8 inch.
Dereck
Click to expand...

Can't see how engine oil will get into the chain case...... unless you've left out the crankcase seal as well as the valve guide seal.
 
My MK 3 would wet sump. I found that someone had removed the valve! There's no way the MK3 valve will fail to open as it's on the pump output, about 100 PSI cold. It might fail to close but since I put one back in, NO wet sump!
 
Al-otment said:
kerinorton said:
ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF WET SUMPING IS ALSO THE OIE MIGRATES INTO the primary case as well. If you ride with the primary case overfill, it ends up on your rear chain and everywhere else. Both my bikes will do this .
Dereck
Click to expand...

Can't see how engine oil will get into the chain case...... unless you've left out the crankcase seal as well as the valve guide seal.
Click to expand...

The oil blows out the main seal and ends up in the chain case (see my post above). Once the main seal gets inverted, it is not much of a seal thereafter, and more engine oil seeps into the chain case.

Slick
 
texasSlick said:
Al-otment said:
kerinorton said:
ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF WET SUMPING IS ALSO THE OIE MIGRATES INTO the primary case as well. If you ride with the primary case overfill, it ends up on your rear chain and everywhere else. Both my bikes will do this .
Dereck
Click to expand...

Can't see how engine oil will get into the chain case...... unless you've left out the crankcase seal as well as the valve guide seal.
Click to expand...

The oil blows out the main seal and ends up in the chain case. Once the main seal gets inverted, it is not much of a seal thereafter, and more engine oil seeps into the chain case.

Slick
Click to expand...

aha! that explains why my crankcase no longer leaks but my primary is now a drippy mess! guess i had better get in there and install a new main seal.
 
I think the primary can be a drippy mess even if the crankcase seal is good. I still get some leakage between the primary halves onto the exhaust pipe near the front. The o-ring gasket really needs to be coated with silicone at least halfway up. ( I have checked that the cases mate up properly.) In looking around at various shows I see that most Nortons have this problem.
 
JimNH said:
My MK 3 would wet sump. I found that someone had removed the valve! There's no way the MK3 valve will fail to open as it's on the pump output, about 100 PSI cold. It might fail to close but since I put one back in, NO wet sump!
Click to expand...


That's how Norton adressed what they must have considered a wet sumping problem. Putting something between the oil tank and oil pump intake is a bit risky, whereas putting a spring loaded check ball on the pump output is the correct way to stop oil from flowing without pressure. AMR has been doing this mod quite successfully on Norton models prior to the MK III for years. As I recall, it was not very expensive. Certaianly it is less obtrusive than a WOG valve and switch with wiring lashup I've seen on some Commandos.
 
JimC said:
JimNH said:
My MK 3 would wet sump. I found that someone had removed the valve! There's no way the MK3 valve will fail to open as it's on the pump output, about 100 PSI cold. It might fail to close but since I put one back in, NO wet sump!
Click to expand...

That's how Norton adressed what they must have considered a wet sumping problem. Putting something between the oil tank and oil pump intake is a bit risky, whereas putting a spring loaded check ball on the pump output is the correct way to stop oil from flowing without pressure. AMR has been doing this mod quite successfully on Norton models prior to the MK III for years. As I recall, it was not very expensive. Certaianly it is less obtrusive than a WOG valve and switch with wiring lashup I've seen on some Commandos.
Click to expand...

JimNH your OPRV is set way to high! 60 to 70 psi cold is just fine. Take of the domed nut and spring and remove 1 or 2 shims out of the valve. FYI the OPRV spring setting should only effect the cold oil pressure.

JimC I agree with you but an equal reliable and more easy solution is the 'oil tank anti wet sump valve' (for Commando and Dominator) as offered by HNW (http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=EN&page=10). Told this before but after using this valve over 30K mls I still love it!
 
nnnrh said:
Can someone explain to me the BIG problem with oil leaking back into the sump, I have never heard of it being a problem except on this forum. As far as I understand and experienced, if it has sat for a while you just start her up and the oil goes back to the tank, end of problem.
Click to expand...

If the sump fills up, it can be hard to start the engine. Also the thrashing round of the con rods in so much oil could put stress on them. Another issue here is the oil that leaks into the primary case via the drive side main seal. That does happen and you have to drain the excess out or it will throw out all over the chain [ and probably You as well ].
regards, Dereck
 
Al-otment said:
kerinorton said:
ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF WET SUMPING IS ALSO THE OIE MIGRATES INTO the primary case as well. If you ride with the primary case overfill, it ends up on your rear chain and everywhere else. Both my bikes will do this . The high milage 850 now has a manual valve in the feed line which I turn off if I am not going to ride the bike more than once a week. The 750 which has now just done 14,000 miles, does wet sump, but slowly so it takes about a month or 2 to really fill the sump and the primary case. I have another valve ready to fit to that bike a s well.
I am sure the oil lines are 3/8 inch.
Dereck
Click to expand...

Can't see how engine oil will get into the chain case...... unless you've left out the crankcase seal as well as the valve guide seal.
Click to expand...

I can't see it happening either. Funny it does though. Not a problem to me as I am aware of it, so the ball valve is useful on the 850, and starting the 750 every week or 2 covers that one for now. When I rebuilt the 750, new seals went in. The 3 bolts holding the primary case were also sealed. You work it out. I haven't had the bottom end apart in the 850 yet. Valve guide seals can't cause wet sumping.
wet sumping isn't a problem, it is just a slight inconvenience.
 
texasSlick said:
Al-otment said:
kerinorton said:
ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF WET SUMPING IS ALSO THE OIE MIGRATES INTO the primary case as well. If you ride with the primary case overfill, it ends up on your rear chain and everywhere else. Both my bikes will do this .
Dereck
Click to expand...

Can't see how engine oil will get into the chain case...... unless you've left out the crankcase seal as well as the valve guide seal.
Click to expand...

The oil blows out the main seal and ends up in the chain case (see my post above). Once the main seal gets inverted, it is not much of a seal thereafter, and more engine oil seeps into the chain case.

Slick
Click to expand...

Hi there, for some reason the oil doesn't seem to "blow out' when running. Either that or its sucked out before it can get a chance . I never have a problem when using the bikes all the time, and never on long trips.
Its not convenient to change that seal, and as I have mentioned, it happens with a new seal fitted. [ sorry, cant explain everything that happens, I just fix what's important.]
dereck
 
batrider said:
I think the primary can be a drippy mess even if the crankcase seal is good. I still get some leakage between the primary halves onto the exhaust pipe near the front. The o-ring gasket really needs to be coated with silicone at least halfway up. ( I have checked that the cases mate up properly.) In looking around at various shows I see that most Nortons have this problem.
Click to expand...

I agree with the silicone on the rubber "o-ring" but it has to be all the way round. One of mine started leaking out the top one day, so I have learned my lesson.
Dereck
 
nortonspeed said:
JimC said:
JimNH said:
My MK 3 would wet sump. I found that someone had removed the valve! There's no way the MK3 valve will fail to open as it's on the pump output, about 100 PSI cold. It might fail to close but since I put one back in, NO wet sump!
Click to expand...

That's how Norton adressed what they must have considered a wet sumping problem. Putting something between the oil tank and oil pump intake is a bit risky, whereas putting a spring loaded check ball on the pump output is the correct way to stop oil from flowing without pressure. AMR has been doing this mod quite successfully on Norton models prior to the MK III for years. As I recall, it was not very expensive. Certaianly it is less obtrusive than a WOG valve and switch with wiring lashup I've seen on some Commandos.
Click to expand...

JimNH your OPRV is set way to high! 60 to 70 psi cold is just fine. Take of the domed nut and spring and remove 1 or 2 shims out of the valve. FYI the OPRV spring setting should only effect the cold oil pressure.

JimC I agree with you but an equal reliable and more easy solution is the 'oil tank anti wet sump valve' (for Commando and Dominator) as offered by HNW (http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=EN&page=10). Told this before but after using this valve over 30K mls I still love it!
Click to expand...

OK, the 100PSI is just a guess as it pegs an 80 PSI gauge and that's only if you rev it. After a slight warm-up it settles down to around 60 @ 3000 and riding it after 10 miles it's no more than 50.

I had the relief valve out and there are no shims.
 
My 2 Combats did not leak engine oil into the primary ATF fully wet sumped to point I had to add some oil to start safer. I did not replace the 3 cover bolts with studs so one backed on on Trixie after 3 yrs and flooded all the engine oil into case and out the felt seal. i"ve had good luck with a new dry seal with gap at top no goop needed. When if it decays I'll use RTV till renewing.
 
>>Also to stop engine oil leaks I installed a BRAKE VACUUM SERVO valve in the vent line coming from the crank case to the oil tank. This valve has a rubber flapper instead of a ball check which works faster to help keep a negative pressure in the crank case.<<

This mod has been noted by others but due to it being a rubber like material has been found too often be short lived. Metal Reed Valves of various kinds tend to be durable and the one from Mikes SX650 is popular and cheap. That is what I use.
There arer a lot of threads on the subject if you decide you need a change.
 
OK, I use the servo vacuum breaker valve on my Norton vent line which is still working. I installed it a month ago. I have looked for Mikes XS 650 reed valve but didn't find one. Where can I buy one and how does the metal reed valve work. It seems that it wouldn't work fast enough to maintain a negative vacuum in the crankcase?
 
Is it me or.... is this thread is really going south.
Now you guys are mixing up wet sumping (a static problem) with crankcase pressure/ventilation (a dynamic problem).
They are not the same, and are not 'fixed' the same way.
 
tomspro said:
Is it me or.... is this thread is really going south.
Now you guys are mixing up wet sumping (a static problem) with crankcase pressure/ventilation (a dynamic problem).
They are not the same, and are not 'fixed' the same way.
Click to expand...

+1

Slick
 
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