Well said Lord Sugar...

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The current stats on this disease are (i'm including Australia out of self interest)
Cases (% of population) Deaths (% of cases there)
USA 1.6M 0.48% 93K 5.8%
UK 248K 0.36% 35K 14.1%
France 181K 0.27% 28K 15.5%
Italy 226K 0.38% 32K 14.2%
Spain 278K 0.59% 27K 9.7%
Brazil 271K 0.13% 18K 6.6%
Australia 7K 0.03% 0.1K 1.4%

So, America has a higher, not by a great margin, cases than Europe but the mortality rate in Europe, on cases basis, is three-fold that in USA.
Australia (and Kiwi-land) doesn't even rate a mention.
Probably because the Poms (Maralinga) and the Frogs (Mururoa Atoll) inoculated us all with radiation a few decades ago!
 
PLEASE don’t forget that the mortality rate shown above is a % of CONFIRMED cases.

No one knows the real total number of infected. But more by a factor of 10 is no longer seen as a likely exaggeration.

And if that’s true, it means the mortality rate reduces by a factor of 10.

More testing will find more cases, but won’t kill anyone...

So a quick way of reducing the statistical mortality rate is to test more...
 
Replying to Fast Eddie
My fears for my children and grandchildren.
Sure some of this is about the economy but also it is about the unknown quantity of grandchildren going back to school.
In addition both my children have had mental health problems in the past as a result of additional stress from either being badly shafted/letdown by life or business partners. They have recovered and dealt with this well. Unless you have experience of this it can be difficult to understand how devastating this can be.
My son has recently started a well-paid new job working at a university. Financial pressures may result in him losing his job. The timing is not good and he and his wife are working and child minding/educating at home. This is pretty stressful and he is struggling to work efficiently. This is worse than being furloughed.
Regarding the grandchildren, I am concerned about how the economy is being hit and what will be the future for them. However, my immediate concern is that without regular testing it will be unknown whether the children, teachers, cleaners, admin staff have the virus or not. I am encouraged by information today on how this has gone in Denmark and it looks like children are not good spreaders - that's a relief as they have certainly proved very efficient at spreading the cold virus to me and my wife in the past!
I do think that testing, tracking and tracing is absolutely key. This is basic epidemiology.
Testing of ALL staff and people at school is required. When every government minister and advisor mentions testing of people if they show symptoms I just explode with anger. This virus can be carried for 5 days before symptoms (i.e. people are pre-symptomatic) and the virus can be carried without symptoms (asymptomatic). Hence you have to test regularly and frequently. My youngest grandchild is aged 3 (4 next month). I wonder what the scientific basis is for testing children over 5 if they have symptoms o_O. Aargh! I have had enough of our completely piss-poor government and advisors.
Good to see Johnson has today been 'Starmered' into waving the NHS charge for migrant NHS and care workers.
Andy
 
Fast Eddie said:
then there are many saying it’s made little, or no long term difference to the effects of the virus. And each one can prove their point with ‘science’ !
Click to expand...

Can you point me in the direction of said proof?
 
Seems to me the Germany, Korean (S), Taiwan, NZ, maybe OZ and maybe a few others have figured it out. It's about contact tracing. Unfortunately in the US we're way behind the curve on that, they're still trying to figure out how to do it and there's no guidance from the WH. Then there's the 40% or so of the US population that seems to want to be ignorant. Also the US is a huge country. OZ has the population of our Texas, not sure about the others, but no way is near as big as the US, that's why the US is such an economy driver, there's a market big enough for everything. Why do you think they shipped most of the Nortons to US?
 
Andy, it’s interesting to read your argument against me because I actually agree with all of your points!

People with mental health issues, people struggling with work / home balance, kids struggling with the situation as a whole, people scared whittles about their financial well being, etc, etc. But I look at all of these issues as arguments to try and get back to as much normality as we safely can, as soon as we safely can.

I think where most of us struggle to agree is with the concept of what does ‘safe’ mean. Personally I’m in the camp that accepts there is no such thing as ‘risk free’, I fully accept that we have a virus and that it is real and that some will get it, but I don’t believe the answer is to stay Locked down indefinitely. We have to balance the risks against each other.

Our lock down was intended to “level the peak”. It has succeeded (we believe). It was NOT intended to lock us down until a vaccine arrives (circa 2 years most likely). So, if it has levelled the peak, and if we cannot stay locked down for two years, when exactly DO we lift the lock down? It has to happen at some point...
 
Fast Eddie said:
Here are a few of the commentators saying such. I have avoided the obvious ‘on the fringe‘ types:

https://apple.news/AdCfjJyYPQxyAZLzLi_weWQ

https://apple.news/Abx86YLRtTj-mA_tfngR5WA

https://apple.news/A3GPgXMtWQVuvgsXnn6CgoA
Click to expand...

Hmm. Thanks.
That JP Morgan study is a perfect example of how money impacts the scientific process.

The other two are more or less speculation/opinion but I see your point!

And to your second comment, I agree completely. The virus is here and it ain't going anywhere. We can't lock people away indefinitely, at some point we're gonna have to poke our heads out of the turtle shell.
 
The numbers are junk. There is no standard for data collection or for testing that is consistent from country to country.

And everyone has noticed how the Chinese numbers have dropped off of all of the serious attempts st statistical accumulations.


The real problem, in terms of statistical analysis, is the lack of a denominator. From the start in January, no one knew how many people in this country or that country had Covid. Yet, we had “experts” telling us what percentages had it. Further, in their arrogance, they told us that “models” predicted that between 500,000 and 2,000,000 were going to die in the U.S.

It’s a tragic human comedy.
 
This is another interesting one, its rare too, rare because it’s an honest interview, the interviewee is given chance to finish sentences and make her point without being tripped up every second. Imagine how different this interview would have been if conducted by the mainstream media (which was the original point of this thread).

On top of the topic of the interview style, Prof Gupta (Oxford University) makes some very good points...

 
Hitler was right! (probably about something) but you can't always play the "hitler said it" card to dismiss ideas.... Think the fuck about that...

Trump has been right, trump has been wrong
Obama,... same shit...
Bush,... "
Clinton
Ceasar..
Jesus,...
Adam and eve....

If you talk about WHO said it rather than address what was said and why it's right or wrong, you are dismissing ideas for identities..
 
o0norton0o said:
Hitler was right! (probably about something) but you can't always play the "hitler said it" card to dismiss ideas.... Think the fuck about that...

Trump has been right, trump has been wrong
Obama,... same shit...
Bush,... "
Clinton
Ceasar..
Jesus,...
Adam and eve....

If you talk about WHO said it rather than address what was said and why it's right or wrong, you are dismissing ideas for identities..
Click to expand...

Forgive me, but I don’t get your point. Is it a go at me for quoting Lord Sugar? Or...?
 
My point is that everyone should argue the idea, not WHO said it. That isn't directed at you Nigel. It's just a statement which characterizes all these political/social/moral arguments made on this site...

It's actually an echo of what Lord sugar said... Critics find something to criticize against their ideological opponents, even when they are doing their best...
 
NPeteN said:
Well that's an assumption if I've ever heard one.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true bernie bro. When you go to the doctor, maybe he doesn't want to cure you. Maybe he makes more money if you are sick and spread your illness. When are you NOT making an assumption of good faith on anyone's part??

Obama is a fuckin' douchebag, So is clinton, Biden, and Popeye... Where's the argument in any of that. It's all "Bernie" bullshit.

The key in having any fucking integrity is to defend some ground (idea) of your own. Not to take a piss on Trump, Obama, Clinton, Popeye, whoever,...

I realize that you and a few other people here have the "hitler said it" thing with trump, so you look to piss on him at every chance you can. There are things he's done well. There are things Obama did horribly wrong, as well as Clinton, and probably Popeye too. The point being that you're just another spragger on the internet defending no ground of your own.

Feel free to roll out the Bernie agenda, so those of us who have worked are asses off our whole life can laugh at free healthcare, free college, open borders, and every other stupid thing the millionaire socialist who owns 4 houses spews into the void. I don't see a lot of criticism of some of the least realistic policies I've ever seen in my lifetime and a good portion of democrats think it's possible...

Lord sugar is right. The press and other interested parties like you never miss a chance to piss on their perceived enemies. He's hitler, and he kicks his dog...
 
I;m not angry, just tired of the same old shit here being passed as intelligent discussion. It's just tiring. If I called every person out on their "personal insult" I'd never have time to eat or sleep.

If I thought one of trump's policies is correct, I'm labeled a "white nationalist" which we all know is code for racist... It's tiring, and many of the arguments (less of them lately thankfully) go there or some place like that....

It's the same thing with Obama. His critics labeled his effort "communist", which is code for ok... communist.. That's also tiring as shit to read. I actually liked that Gortnipper, who seems to hate trump, actually said some stuff I agree with about the failure of the ACA, in that it didn't do what the people need, make the prices of care more affordable. It's nice to see people who are ideologically opposite of you make an observation of a mistake or a poor result of their own philosophical bend. It seems more like a discussion of ideas, than a pissing contest.

Anyway, I don't post in the pub much anymore, because it's too time consuming to point out to certain people they are being insulting on a regular basis, and what can you say in response to an "I hate you and people who believe what you believe" post anyway?
 
o0norton0o said:
I;m not angry, just tired of the same old shit here being passed as intelligent discussion. It's just tiring. If I called every person out on their "personal insult" I'd never have time to eat or sleep.
I don't know why you feel the need to do that?

If I thought one of trump's policies is correct, I'm labeled a "white nationalist" which we all know is code for racist... It's tiring, and many of the arguments (less of them lately thankfully) go there or some place like that....
I hear you on that. In fact, someone on this very forum just called me a "Bernie bro" (which we all know is code for naive socialist) and I didn't even have to say I agreed with his policies first!

It's the same thing with Obama. His critics labeled his effort "communist", which is code for ok... communist.. That's also tiring as shit to read. I actually liked that Gortnipper, who seems to hate trump, actually said some stuff I agree with about the failure of the ACA, in that it didn't do what the people need, make the prices of care more affordable. It's nice to see people who are ideologically opposite of you make an observation of a mistake or a poor result of their own philosophical bend. It seems more like a discussion of ideas, than a pissing contest.
I agree

Anyway, I don't post in the pub much anymore, because it's too time consuming to point out to certain people they are being insulting on a regular basis, and what can you say in response to an "I hate you and people who believe what you believe" post anyway?
Maybe take some of your own advice and "defend some ground of your own" rather than playing insult cop.
Click to expand...
 
I have rarely insulted anyone, so I don't need to defend any ground to prove that I'm not posting here to express my loathing for anyone.

As far as "bernie bro" goes, you see my meaning but if you take that as an insult, it wasn't meant to be demeaning. I stated that the Bernie Bro's are full of criticism and blame, and their solutions are, "It's ok, everyone gets something for free". Their ideas are hard to take seriously and that criticism isn't demeaning.

Go up to the top of the page and search "Orange". Granted, there are a few reasons why people use orange in a thread, but you know where I am going. There's ten pages of threads where people used that word... Probably half of them are derrogitory comments about Trump.

Now go up and search "Nigger". Wow, only 1 result, and it was you using that word in an anology.

Now go up and search "Racist" 6 pages of threads where the word is discussed in the thread.

Funny how Not a single conservative person ever typed the word "nigger" here and there are 6 pages of threads discussing racism yet there are probably between 5 and 10 pages where Trump is called a derogitory name, and that's not discussed once. Aren't we all against any sort of personal derrogitory attacks?... Yeah, I know the answer to that already. I just wonder if all you liberals posting here are introspective enough to see that you have an equal amount of horrible people on your own side of the ideological fence making stupid decisions and stupid policies too.

I always say, Argue the policy, not the person or some demonizing secret motivation behind the policy
 
Trump is the president, he is going to get shit flung his way.

In fact, Trump was shit flinger #1 during the last administration.

The world is not Liberal vs Conservative. If you would like to discuss all the shitty liberals go start a thread about them.

I'm a registered independent. What party do you belong to?
 
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