Weight distribution

I was watching one of Jim Schmidt's videos and saw him stand a featherbed Norton up on the throttle. To do that with my own bike, I'd probably have to give it heap of revs then dump the clutch. Even then it would probably spin the rear wheel before it lifted the front. One of the things I found about Tritons, is that it is common to leave about an inch clearance between the crankcase front mount and the steel mounts on the frame. It's done so the pipes won't hit the frame front down-tubes. That inch the motor is further back causes the bike to feel airy in high speed corners. The easiest road bike to stand up on the rear wheel that I have ridden, was a Triumph Trident, all you had to do was squirt it slightly too hard. It wasn't a fast bike, however the centre of gravity was back a bit.
I would have thought a Commando motor in a featherbed frame would cause the front to stay down and the rear wheel to spin first, because of the lean on the motor. In any case Jim Scmidt's bike seems to have a bloody fast motor.

maybe Jims a better tuner than you Al

Wheelies are the bane of potent cycles. Commando's only seem able to lift front some about time rpm becomes damaging so wheelie resistant. More than once Ms Peel extra 2nd gear punch to 90/7500 ish could out leap higher hp bikes shooting into narrow entries, seeing them lift up to fall behind peripheral vision. Anything more than barely floating front on commando requires spin up clutch drop bar jerk up like in movies or just drop clutch at stand still even Honda 50s would rear right up. Too much mass on front in turns tends to lift rear too easy and visa versa unless pilot can shift enough to compensate. IIRC Cdo's about 55% mass on rear.

madass140 said:

maybe Jims a better tuner than you Al

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From experience, I know my bike is fast enough to win against methanol-fuelled 1000cc CB750 Hondas. Even off a clutch start, it doesn't lift the front. I think the ideal might be slightly lifting the front wheel while spinning the back wheel, but that doesn't determine whether the bike feels positive on a high speed bend. The crux of the matter is that if the bike does not feel uncertain, you will give it more stick. So the weight distribution determines whether you can win.

A few decades ago I was running late to get to the club ride start. Hitting all the red lights going through San Francisco on the way to the Golden Gate so gave my '73 750 Commando a handful of throttle after getting off the line. Front end came up and I rode it on the back wheel for about a block. Barnett clutch plates don't slip. I have a witness to the event. Ask Phil Radford about it. He said I can't believe you did that.

Back when we were racing two-strokes, it became very evident that if the bike was doing a wheelie, it was better to use that energy to make the bike go forward. Maxton frames were better than standard Yamaha frames for TZ350s. There was a guy whose name was John Williams (?) won the Senior IOM TT with a Maxton Yamaha 350 in the mid 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams_(motorcyclist)

illf8ed said:

A few decades ago I was running late to get to the club ride start. Hitting all the red lights going through San Francisco on the way to the Golden Gate so gave my '73 750 Commando a handful of throttle after getting off the line. Front end came up and I rode it on the back wheel for about a block. Barnett clutch plates don't slip. I have a witness to the event. Ask Phil Radford about it. He said I can't believe you did that.

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You must have had a rear tyre with good grip. Most British bikes have the weight well forward, so are not easy to wheelie. Mind you, I once saw a mate of mine dump the clutch on a 750 WLA Harley and the front wheel hopped off the ground a bit. Might also have something to do with torque and gearing ? My Seeley doesn't do anything until it is rolling.

Many years ago, I was offered a test ride on a friend's early-Seventies Yamahahaha RD350. Rolling along in first gear, I opened the throttle a bit and waited for the engine to come onto the pipes. As it did, the front end began to go airborne, and would have continued to go clear over if I wouldn't have eased off the throttle. I don't remember feeling any great sensation of acceleration during that whole time. I was only 145lb at the time, so the bike wasn't inordinately top-heavy. Having already started riding the Norton by that time and trying to remain impartial, I think the Norton could have outrun it. As I understand, they moved the engine forward on those bikes (RD's) in their later years.

Nathan

My 850 Featherbed is a great wheel stander and can do wheelies without dropping the clutch all I need is a little bump on the road and a handfull of throttle and a bit of a pull on the handle bars and up she goes, it has a good balance and will stand stright up just about without going to far back it will stay in that position for as long as you keep the power up to it and with the quick gear change without using the clutch will keep going on the back wheel, the first time doing this after building the Comando/Featherbed it scared the shit out of me thinking I was going to flip it but after a few times I got to know its balance point and with 2 up I can even go further down the road on the back wheel, with the hot motor it does it with ease.
My Norton is so light some times the front end comes up when giving it a hand full and throwing it into 2nd gear but its very rare I do wheeles now but sometime I can't help it when I see a nice little bump in front of me when stopped at lights.
The good thing about the Featherbed is its a lot shorter than Commandos and other bikes as well so much lighter, the first two years after I built it and still being young it spent more time on the back wheel than both on the road but it takes a lot out of chains and rear sprockets as well as rear tyres, when the wife is on the back she just knows when I am going to pull it up she sorts of sense it and knows I can't help it.
My new 1200 Thruxton is starting to show signs of being a good wheel stander as I have had the front wheel up a few times putting it into 2nd gear with a hand full of throttle, its all about putting the power on and timing and a little bit of pull at the right time.
I have been doing wheelies since I first got into dirt bikes and I still pull wheelies right through all the gears on my CRF450X when out in the dirt, its like a drug I just can't help it, by the way I am still running the orginal clutch in my Norton and it has well over 150k miles on it, the only thing that has been replaced is the pressure plate and clutch center not bad for owning it for over 42 years, so no need to dump the clutch to get your bike up but having a well balanced bike plays a big part and timing.

Ashley

Hehe, its these calculated stunts that stand out in memory before ya die so glad we got away with it. Ease to wheelie implies either short wheel base or lack of front mass, either of which impairs acceleration pecking order. Modern elites have to limit power response by traction and wheelie control as they innately tend to lift up on less G's than a decent Commando. Alas Nortons run out of hp around the ton but regardless that is commonest speed in public to determine realistic pecking order so even today can surprise elites.

Hehe, returning from '04 Ohio rally with cargo on rack and hard bags a sports biker pulled up at small town square stop light to ask what it was, then when light changed (after I've given Wes my normal Amal needles so used new one got at rally, told race profile) to give a bit too much throttle so lifted front 45'ish at launch and carried it a dozen bike lengths before let off and traffic. Surprised me as much as biker but not very quick take off.

I'm tickled to 'death' on the reports of ease to wheelie a Norton powered cycle as I'm not practiced/confident yet. It was very hard to wheelie my P!! dragster - took high revs and some forward motion 40 mph to rev/clutch/jerk up or would just smoke rear. Triple smokers and cops didn't stand a chance. P!! down tubes 1" longer and forks cut 1" shorter so need a Hot Shot Device on Peel with air cylinders suck down to embarass Aperilla V4's, BMW's and other robot controlled/tamed cycles.

Btw Commando manual lists top/bottom CoG at 19.5". My sense of road and off road 'racing' leaning or snatched side ways flying is CoG moves to about butt level with pilot sealed but most mass at rear so it soon leads the way on surprise trip downs to end most my crashes facing to direction I was going.

acotrel said:

You must have had a rear tyre with good grip. Most British bikes have the weight well forward, so are not easy to wheelie. Mind you, I once saw a mate of mine dump the clutch on a 750 WLA Harley and the front wheel hopped off the ground a bit. Might also have something to do with torque and gearing ? My Seeley doesn't do anything until it is rolling.

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I suspect it was the Barnet cutch plates having better grip than the bronze plates that were replaced. Time period was mid 80s so likely a K81 tire. The wheelie wasn’t intentional, but was fun.

I would have thought a Commando motor in a featherbed frame would cause the front to stay down and the rear wheel to spin first >

My 1st Combat leaning curve found it'd hesitate accelerating on snicking 2nd with squealing noises I thought was the broonze clutch plates slipping but turned out to be rear spin I had to use less throttle an instant to avoid delays but no wheelie. I do not think ya can wheelie a Commando, Featherbed or Seeley by accident just rolling on throttle power w/o some pilot skill to induce it. I did learn not to spike Combat throttle going up steep city streets or would pawl air in too close quarters to enjoy.
All can wheelie on drag launches too easy though.

Ms Peel had accidental power excess that shocked me being able to pull a sideways wheelie off peg fouling lean angle in 1st and 2nd to insanely sharpen up narrow chicane dicing. Could not get moderns on 17" fat hot race tires to do that, only spin, step out, slide or crash.

Nater_Potater said:

Many years ago, I was offered a test ride on a friend's early-Seventies Yamahahaha RD350. Rolling along in first gear, I opened the throttle a bit and waited for the engine to come onto the pipes. As it did, the front end began to go airborne, and would have continued to go clear over if I wouldn't have eased off the throttle. I don't remember feeling any great sensation of acceleration during that whole time. I was only 145lb at the time, so the bike wasn't inordinately top-heavy. Having already started riding the Norton by that time and trying to remain impartial, I think the Norton could have outrun it. As I understand, they moved the engine forward on those bikes (RD's) in their later years.

Nathan

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I stopped road-racing regularly in the early 1970s. In Allpowers C Grade a lot of guys had RD350s. They were a much easier bike to ride well than an old British bike. I could usually beat them with my 500cc Triton on a short circuit - JUST. Wheelies with a two stroke are no problem, you learn to feed the throttle on slowly and you need to do that anyway to get the best power. The wheel-stand usually occurs at the starts of the straights and if you let it happen, you go slower. I don't think they ever moved the motor in the RDs - the RZ was a different frame. An RZ350 is a really good thing.

illf8ed said:

I suspect it was the Barnet cutch plates having better grip than the bronze plates that were replaced. Time period was mid 80s so likely a K81 tire. The wheelie wasn’t intentional, but was fun.

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I never get clutch slip with the Seeley 850 because I use a Manx clutch and the bike is very light. When I built it, I intentionally kept the weight as far forward as possible. A friend is involved with a guy who races a Norvin. The weight distribution is 50% - I think I would have difficulty riding it fast. The Seeley never wheel-stands, it usually spins the rear wheel. The main thing is the feel - it is always positive and confidence inspiring - so much so that it is a bit of a worry. One day I am probably going to tie it into a knot and deck myself big-time.

hobot said:

I would have thought a Commando motor in a featherbed frame would cause the front to stay down and the rear wheel to spin first >

My 1st Combat leaning curve found it'd hesitate accelerating on snicking 2nd with squealing noises I thought was the broonze clutch plates slipping but turned out to be rear spin I had to use less throttle an instant to avoid delays but no wheelie. I do not think ya can wheelie a Commando, Featherbed or Seeley by accident just rolling on throttle power w/o some pilot skill to induce it. I did learn not to spike Combat throttle going up steep city streets or would pawl air in too close quarters to enjoy.
All can wheelie on drag launches too easy though.

Ms Peel had accidental power excess that shocked me being able to pull a sideways wheelie off peg fouling lean angle in 1st and 2nd to insanely sharpen up narrow chicane dicing. Could not get moderns on 17" fat hot race tires to do that, only spin, step out, slide or crash.

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In Jim Schmidt's video, he appears to get the wheelie without slipping the clutch first - just does it using the throttle. The motor appears to be very strong, but it might simply be just weight distribution. With a featherbed, the position of the motor is critical. I don't know about Commandos, from what I have seen and read they tend to stay down in the front. The last time I raced my Seeley, I only got one good start out of three races. I revved the tits off it and dropped the clutch and found myself beside the leader coming out of the second corner. When I did that, I was certain I was going to shag the gearbox - the bike still did not wheel-stand.

I used to have a commando 750 motor in a wideline featherbed cafe racer .
The motor was leant forward as in the commando frame,it was a very powerful motor but it was tuned the way they were back then ,big valve head,33mm ports 3s cam ,powermax pistons very light polished crank etc, I had clipons about an inch down from the top yoke, in first gear it would wheelie as it came on power because of the way it was tuned and in second gear the front would be very light ,but a lot of this was down to the way I rode the bike!

The hardest thing to get the Commando/Featherbed up is the begining it will lift the front wheel off the ground easy but you have to use the power to get the front wheel up high but once it get up there the balance of the bike comes into play, the higher you get the front wheel up the longer you can go on the back wheel playing with the throttle to keep it up there, I have seen Jim's video but he doesn't get his front wheel high enough and doesn't go far enough on the back wheel, my Featherbed goes a lot higher off the ground nearly standing up straight and it will stay there without falling back further, its hard to explain why but it does and my mate who got me into Featherbed frame with a hot Commando motor his 750 did the same, when I did the first wheel stand on it I freacked out and put it straight down my mate was watching and told me to keep the throttle open and keep it up, I remember him saying it won't flip and sure enough it didn't to my surprise, the more I did it the better I got at doing long wheelies.
I don't do it no more as I say it wears the chains, sprockets and tyres out to quick and the less money I have to spend these days the better, but I do lift it evey so often just powering on from 1st to 2nd, when I first built the Commando/Featherbed I built it with basic tools with little money but I did my homework looking at what my mate Don had done on his bike and did a few changes to the way his was set up, remember this was before the inter net and I was only 20 years old then but 38 years later the bike is still set up the same but has gone through a lot of improvements and upgrades since and I still get a big smile on my face everytime I ride it.

Ashley

Again - reassuring me that Norton Feartherbeds or Commandos seem to be flip over resistant, cool. On 7th day of 1st Combat, summer '99, at timed 1/8m strip, did the smoke rear warm up and got braver on 4 adrenalized launches til 5th launch to perfect 40's degree leap on 4500 release to get past X-mass tree when Combat 2S cam rpm hit to lift vertical folding up rear to toss us down on R knee against barrels shattering/dislocating to flopping loose side ways or staying on ground a couple inches lifting leg to have it snap back up in surprise taking to ground again. hobot is horrified of surprise wheelies so last major Mz Peel delay is inventing installing a repeat triggering Hot Shot device.

If Peel works as dreamed I want video of 50-100mph speed up by controlling power curve-hook up so that Peel stays at same levelish frame attitude as steady cruise to appear to simply lift front tire up a couple inches as she accelerates like a dragster with all mass on rear patch. Want to learn to do slow wheelies going in tight circles like stunters do and yoose hooligans do. Peel has the drive train upgrades to take this for the rest of my/her life. I'm betting to break into upper 9's 1/4 miles.
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?326603-1-4-mile-times

I get my kix getting air borne in many ways & conditions, some are like the MX guys pulling front up to help clear log or ridge.

I was thinking about what you guys have said about featherbed Nortons doing wheelies. I CAN actually remember my Triton doing a wheelie on only one occasions during a road race. And it was after I had moved the motor forward. It was at Mount Gambier in about 1970. In those days the surface of the circuit was inch screenings bedded down in bitumen. Over the back of the circuit, there was a tight right-hander followed by a sweeping left-hander then a tight left-hander. I got around the right-hander very well then powered through the sweeper on what I thought was the racing line. Halfway between the two tight bends there was a dip, which was almost invisible because of the non-skid surface. When I rode through it, it gave the push which started the wheelie. I rode up the hill on the back wheel and just got the front down in time to get around the tight left-hander. In those days if you crashed at Mount Gambier, it was almost a certain trip to hospital. My friend lost half of his right hand there and had to learn to write left-handed. Later on somebody sued the local council because of the non-skid surface and it was replaced with smooth-top. I won a couple of races there about 15 years ago and it was much safer. When my Triton did that wheelie there, I thought I was going to end up dead.

Hot Damn acetrel living it up to the max. That old non skid edgy surface is similar to THE Gravel stone base, like chain saw to flesh. Its those surprise lifts I have plans to tame and induce with Mz Peel. Peel might cause fork tucking to cycle world to catch on. Pop up to help unicycle around on rear then suck down sprint out of apex. I did get a fair amount of launching wheelie practice on Ms Peel off road. There's various over 45' ledges-walls at my home and friends from 3- 9 ft tall I'd run up to hit WOT like a hill climber to catch air cresting and land pretty easy, if not snaging a rut with front in deep grass. Look before leaping they say.

Regardless Jimmy's Featherbed Commando is responsive enough must back off throttle opening to accelerate quicker.