VIN number questions 71 or 72 750 commando

Got a call from a guy over here who is great trouble trying to register his 750 Commando imported from USA.
Despite numerous efforts and pieces of evidence he cannot convince the authorities that the bike is authentic and not stolen.
Here in the Netherlands, a bike without a number in the headstock is an immediate reason for suspicion.
Trouble is also that not many inspectors here are aware of the Norton frame numbering presentation history.
The bike has the alloy VIN plate on the headstock, the VIN plate carries the number 202214.
The engine number is the same.
The gearbox has another number, probably replaced at some time.
The guy said it is a 1971 model, the number however points to a 72.
So the inspector does not even look at the VIN plate, they say anyone can put that on the headstock and stamp a number in it.
Than it comes down to concince the guy that is was the normal routine in US not to stamp the headstock.
But the curious thing is that the headstock actually did carry the same number but it was applied on the paint, although with little impact!
The authorities went as far grinding away the paint there to see with a scanner if maybe another number was underneath but the steel surface showed nothing.
The guy has been invited to appear for a committee in 10 days time where he can explain his case.
It is his LAST AND ONLY chance left and he is desperate, also as he already restored it.
Is there anything conclusive to be said about the location and presentation of the VIN number on USA 750 models from 71 and 72?
Is it maybe dependant on what state it was registered in US?

I am not amiliar with all this, especially not with 750's.
It would be greatly appreciated if one of you could shed some light.
Thanks, Bennie.

Perhaps the official import documentation he received with the bike will provide enough evidence of legitimacy.

The original US state title (without liens) and a certificate showing that the VIN passed a law enforcement agency data base check may have been included in the sale.

Even in the US, vehicle purchases with just a 'bill of sale' can be a lot of trouble to ever get registered for the road.

I'm sure it's frustrating, hope it works out.

202214 may well have been manufactured in the latter part of 1971 but any 20xxxx serial number Commando can be regarded as being a 1972 'year' model.

If the person needs 'official' evidence that it was usual practise for the factory to stamp the serial number on the certification plate, and not directly onto the frame then I can only suggest he gets in contact with either the UK NOC, or Andover Norton (or both) and explain the situation, and hopefully at least one of them will be able to send a letter stating this was the standard factory procedure at that time which he could present as evidence.

Any link to the government website and the verbiage pertaining to this? Just curious.

As mentioned, in the US the "certificate of title" is the ace card. Did you get one?

When I was exporting MCs from the US to the UK in the 90s, I had to have US Customs certify the bikes' titles as "clear" to export. In that process, they verified that the bike was not stolen, and they stamped the original US ( WA state) title with a customs stamp which I sent along with the paperwork for the shipment.

Did the person/company who shipped the bike have this done, and have the export paperwork?

I don't think this is necessarily a matter of whether the import documentation is in order or not, but down to the particular authority concerned apparently refusing to accept the certification plate number as the being the actual frame number, therefore the owner has so far been unable to convince the authority that the bike, or at least the frame, isn't stolen.

If the bike comes from the US, and the owner has the Certificate of Title with a US Customs export certification, that should be sufficient proof that the bike was not stolen.

gortnipper said:

If the bike comes from the US, and the owner has the Certificate of Title with a US Customs export certification, that should be sufficient proof that the bike was not stolen.

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The owner still can't prove conclusively that the frame is genuine if they won't accept the plate stamp. The authority's stance being that anyone can stamp a number on a plate and rivet it to the headstock:

slimslowslider said:

So the inspector does not even look at the VIN plate, they say anyone can put that on the headstock and stamp a number in it.

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Theyre probably after a bribe , getim to take a bottle of whisky .

Whats the story for that year / number , WOULD it be stamped under the paint there ?
Worth stripping of the paint on the front 5/8 of the headstock to find it ?

Is the plate ancient & faded - or a new one . doesee ave the original .

Pays o photo things as you go , on restoration , didee ? .

Can this be the only Norton Commando in the Netherlands with the frame number on a headstock plate?

It sounds like your friend is up against the full force of bureaucracy at its worst!

If they think it's stolen they have to prove it.
I agree with LAB - the NOC are very helpful and efficient with providing dating certificates, and I'd also expect they would be happy to explain that 750 frames weren't stamped by the factory - just the VIN plate.

I had similar hassle when registering my 900SS ex-TT race bike which had never been road registered - it had no number on the headstock and the guy from the DVLA was stumped.
I pointed out that Ducatis had the number stamped on the engine mount (like a Featherbed Norton), but he couldn't get past his instruction manual and had to go and make a phone call.

It all worked out in the end - I think he just gave up and accepted what I told him; 'they're all like that, sir'. I just hope your friend can get the evidence to convince your authorities.

B+Bogus said:

If they think it's stolen they have to prove it.

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As it's a (presumably government) licensing department and not a court of law, they basically hold all the cards-so as far as they're concerned, it's up to the owner to satisfy them that it isn't stolen rather than for them to prove that it is.

When a bureaucrat makes a statement he finds it very difficult to back down. NOC letter is the only way forward as it gives him an official (well nearly official ;0 ) out. I would also include a printout of the DVLA list of approved dating cert agencies with the NOC highlighted showing the UK equivalent organisation recognise the NOC.

You could also point out anyone could stamp a blank headstock so in its present state whats the difference, but they may be counter productive

#202214 was despatched from the factory on 20th January, 1971 as a black Roadster. Destination not given.
Joe/Andover Norton

In May of 2014 got my new build 750 insured informed CN of all changes re 828 cases etc and took it for an M O T. Passed no prob , but I had put a new vin plate on as the old one was missing and the tester had missed a number on the MOT form, also the frame number did not match the V 5 it had a letter substituted for one of the numbers. And the V5 had to go to DVLA to get tax class changed to historic.

So I had one vin number on the frame ,a different one on the MOT and a third different one on the V5.
DVLA sent me new V5 and a new MOT certificate not a problem, got to say first rate service and quick too.

J

ZFD said:

#202214 was despatched from the factory on 20th January, 1971 as a black Roadster.

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January 1971 ??? :shock:

Oh dear! Typing error- 20-1-72.....
Comes from taking phone calls simultaneously.
Apologies,
Joe

P.S. Took a bit of finding- these 200.000-on bikes are mostly not entered in the numerical production records- only 2-5 entries per page for some reason-, but only in the despatch book which is NOT numerical.

I know you've gone to a certain amount of trouble to find information about what the model was and when it left the factory, but what the fellow seems to need is a letter from an officially recognised body or bodies (such as yourself or the NOC) stating that it was the standard Norton factory practise of the day for the 'frame' number to be stamped on the plate, and not on the actual frame.

Of course he may still have difficulty persuading the licensing authority that the plate is genuine and is the one originally attached to that particular frame when it left the factory? :?

"The fellow" hasn't asked us so until he does I know nooo-tink!

L.A.B. said:

B+Bogus said:

If they think it's stolen they have to prove it.

Click to expand...

As it's a (presumably government) licensing department and not a court of law, they basically hold all the cards-so as far as they're concerned, it's up to the owner to satisfy them that it isn't stolen rather than for them to prove that it is.

Click to expand...

Understood, but what's the motive behind digging paint off the frame?