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USA 961 Sales.. (2011)

Discussion in 'Norton Motorcycles (Modern)' started by jeffdavison, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. snakehips

    snakehips

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Don't think they are in the same league. Delorean had 120 million of taxpayers money, Stuart Garner hasn't had any as yet unless of course he defaults on the Santander loan I guess you are on about. I suppose we had better get the sniffer dogs out incase he too is involved in drug trafficking like J D.
     
  2. ZFD

    ZFD

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2010
    As I understand it if you put down a deposit with a "new" manufacturer this is at your own risk, and legally speaking you got no leverage if he does not deliver. I should have known that when I produced Nortons on a subscription basis- that would have saved me a lot of money. Then again, I am not the type to not-deliver.

    There are virtually no bikes outside the UK bar those the various importers have had to show to customers to lure them into putting down deposits. I hear the German importers (I have nothing to do with them, thank God!) have taken all of 15 deposits but have yet to see a bike bar their "appetizer".

    From experience I know producing a bike is very much an uphill struggle with leetimes for component deliveries mostly x-times of what one anticipated, during which time costs run on and no sales occur, thus draining the funds.

    Again from experience I can calculate, and I know what things cost, and the whole 961 exercise to me makes no financial sense whatsoever.

    Whilst tax money has not gone into this, pension moneys may have. I saw a pension investment scheme advertizing to "invest" in Norton Motorcycles.

    I am glad I sit on the sidelines just watching the spectacle.
     
  3. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Any manufacturer who is on such shaky ground financially that they are relying on customer deposits to enable them to remain in business, seems the type of thing anyone who cant afford to lose their deposits, should avoid getting involved with. There is also of course the fact that such a manufacturer will not have the RD budget, to properly test and iron out initial faults and problems with a new machine. This was the case with Hesketh of course, and also the Bimota 2T project which on paper looked very interesting.
     
  4. snakehips

    snakehips

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    In the uk the way of taking the risk out of this is to pay your deposit on a credit card, then if you don't get your bike for whatever reason under section 75 of the consumer credit act the card company is equally as liable as the seller and you can can claim the money back form the seller cc company or both and even more bizarre if you should pay the deposit by cc and the balance by another means e.g cash or debit card the cc company is liable to repay you the whole amount.
    P.s just been out in the garage polishing mine, what a lovely bike how on earth do they do it for that money. :mrgreen:
     
  5. john robert bould

    john robert bould

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    sorry i ment STUART
     
  6. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Delorean was not a crook, Just a desparate man who got into a venture and found himself over his head and caught in a sting operation by the US Government. He had proven talent and succsess before he tried to stike out on his own. If he had a flaw, he was a victim of his inability to handle his asperations.... He had a dream that failed with the onslaught of the realities he had to deal with.

    JD


     
  7. Hortons Norton

    Hortons Norton

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    A guy here in the states named Erik Buell is also doing something somewhat like Sturat, But he has already started selling Buells. I think giving dates is not a good thing for the image of the whole operation, And on top of that not coming clean on what the real problems are won't help matters. It would really worry me a bit if I had a deposit down, Someone said he has two other companies failing at this point (ouch)..... I hope he can pull it off, But what would I want most if money didn't matter?????????? :wink:
     
  8. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    I have a feeling the new Norton venture is severely under-capitalized. Not being an established manufacture and asking for upfront deposits doesn't sound good to me. On a much smaller scale, new Norton parts that are developed by some of our contributors here (I'm speculating here) are not financed by deposits or original sales. The break even point usually comes well after introduction and actual delivery of a substantial run. How much easier it would be to make things if you could get a partial payment before anything is produced.

    I know some car and motorcycle dealers take deposits on a yet to be delivered hot new models from established manufactures, but that's a different kettle of fish. I believe Harley-Davidson dealers were getting deposits during the nineties. Those days are long gone for Harley. I've heard Bruce Rossmeyer's Harley Davidson (one of the largest Harley dealerships) are taking a few hundred bikes a month to an auction. Not the best of times for motorcycle sales, I'm afraid.
     
  9. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010

    I guess drug dealing and ripping off £120M of UK taxpayers money, are not things which suggest JD was in any way dishonest then?
     
  10. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    study the man, the history and the facts.
    There really is no "social" justification for his acts, but he did not venture out with his original dream to steal and deal. He pressured himself to "do what it takes" for his dream and aspirations to come to fruition when threatened with extinction regarding the investments and the US Government siezed upon that eagerness to sting him. He never dealt drugs, but was entrapped. He wanted , what you think of and put a "spin" on as "ill gotten gains" into the company to keep it going, not put the money in his personal bank account as Bernie Madoff did. His goal was not to defraud and enrich himeslf , tho that may have been what many view as the end result, but to rather keep his company alive. I agree that the means in no way justify the ends, but his intentions were not as nefarious as you portray. Blame the UK government for their taxpayers losses as THEY are the ones who wrote the check to John. The UK government was gambling with the taxpayer kitty, and then blames "the house" for it's losses? Sorry to say, there are no sure bets or investments with an absolute garantee of R.O.I. It's all risk and the choice to write the check lies squarly on the shoulders of the check writer and failure to do proper due dillagence is their responsability which they must bear.

    JD

     
  11. debby

    debby

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    They do appear somewhat underfunded. I hope they can pull it off. Couldn't have picked a worse time to start up a new company.

    The only time I bought a bike on deposit was when I bought my Hypermotard, and I didn't hand the money over until I'd had a ride on their demo unit. Four months later, still no bike and no idea when they were coming (was starting to look like next spring), I bought the demo bike. I figured it had a good Mototune-style break in!

    I'd consider buying a 961 if I could ride a demo bike first. Until then, I'll keep my money...

    Debby
     
  12. Fullauto

    Fullauto VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    I have a little knowledge of this. Some four years ago I started my little venture, invested some AU$150,000 so far and think I may have my money back sometime in the next two to three years, or when all the Nortons which have been ordered so far get delivered, whichever comes later. People have commented on how expensive my product is but nobody can say that the quality isn't world class. I'm afraid that quality costs and I didn't see the point in having a poor to middling quality piece made elsewhere.
    Also, on the subject, I don't see why Stuart Garner, or anybody else for that matter, would set out with the view that the whole thing would fail. I'm sure that he is doing his best to supply all the Nortons needed. However, in any business like that you are at the mercy of outside influences that you have absolutely no control over.
    I just hope he succeeds.
     
  13. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    Interesting to hear that De Lorean did not rip off £120m of UK taxpayers money, which at the time was a pretty large sum! The fact that he was able to come by this handout so easily, is the main reason his cars were to be produced (or not rather!) in Northern Ireland.
     
  14. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    Governments have seldom shown much sense in relation to industry , except on a war footing .
    Even then politics have got in the way of reason , and unions . :shock:

    In my opinion , if he has the rights to the Rotarys , hed be better of churning out machines near identical to the one pictured ( Avatar ) . Tiss the 61 flat single G.P. frame near enough ( Norton ) .

    Pity it didnt happen thirty years ago . The may have established themselfs back on the market .
    Still , power , power to weight , economy of manufacture , low parts count and PERFORMANCE
    would make it economically competitive . For Motorcyclists .

    Appears a few gouls that relate expense with value have haunted the abode of Norton .

    Ordinarilly the simplist way of doeing something is the best . Even if its Twin Cam grand Prix machine .
    Likely you couldnt eliminate anything from a Manx , in its Era , without suffering from the result .

    The pre war ancestry in concepts can be appreciated for its purity , evident now in a few moto X bikes
    where the function being paramont , the stylists ( Designer . Barghf ) havnt got to mess them up . :wink:

    Volume production would howver seem counter to ' eliteist ' pricipals .However it would seem essntial for profitability
    if the finances of an opperation were to be self contained , allowing expansion .

    To me there seems no originality in looking at a V 4 competition machine . The other companies have decades of lead in development and engineering . Following in there shadows is all thats likely to result .

    Returning the 73 BSA Triumph Norton Rotary to production , as it then was ,would show what was passed over at that time .
    ( see ' Govt. ' and ' mindless asses ' )
    The Cosworth Challenge seems not unworthy of continuation also , despite Duckworths preocupation with Quill Shafts .

    However they seem to have squandered their funds with an Anachronism , rather than a market competitive machine .
    Buiness practises might be likened to yough wippersnappers as well as their design concept ?
    Imitation is the sinceerist form of flatery , but why bother , when you have the Original ? . As they did .

    I supose xpecting any of it to make sense is expecting to much , these days .
     
  15. Carbonfibre

    Carbonfibre

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    HD and Triumph both seem to be doing very well with retro styled machines, and had the new Norton venture been handled properly there is no real reason why the bikes couldnt have taken a share of the very popular retro market.
     
  16. Matt Spencer

    Matt Spencer

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2010
    If the Gear shift worked .*

    To prove it can haul the coal , it'd be in everyones intrest if they let the journalists loose on one , trans European tour
    or the like . ?
    To me half wit models and rock stars might not shave , but youd think he could afford a razor , or grow a beard .Besides
    being half asleep at breakfast went out of fasion 20 years ago . Overauls and split fingers might impress more people ?

    * was said at Cathcarts rant ' to be sorted ' , levers as vertical as horizontal . a new First ! :shock:
     
  17. john robert bould

    john robert bould

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2009
    Having read about the guy, sounds like he was a bit of a hero, getting on well under his own steam..Ok the Drug rap didnt stick [Entrappment} but enough dirt arose for the British goverment to pull the plug on him...9000 cars built.... never seen one in the flesh
     
  18. hobot

    hobot

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
  19. willh

    willh

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Ah, with the optional time travel package, wonder what the option cost...

    I believe that someone around here has a deposit down for a new 961, was assigned a production number...
    Would really like to see one in the flesh.
     
  20. JimC

    JimC

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    I think there are many potential buyers for the new Norton, if, and only if, there were a dealer network with real bikes for sale on the showroom floor. Baring that, I doubt that deposits on yet to be manufactured bikes will be enough to sustain the company.

    One of the neatest bikes I've ridden in the past five years is a Moto Guzzi Norge. Great looking, great sound, gobs of torque, properly setup for touring without losing the sport bike feeling. Were there a larger established dealer network I may have been enticed to buy one. Unfortunately, for Moto Guzzi, I was not about to part with nearly $15,000 for a motorcycle that didn't have a readily available source of dealer support. I went with a BMW, instead.
     

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