Tri Spark woes

dynodave said:

Up to and including a 5 pound sledge hammer can cause a MECHANICAL failure.
It would be more constructive if you understood, I am talking about electronic failure.

Infant mortality is still electronic death?
"over voltage that can take a toll on electronics assemblies" extreme over voltage again failure from heat... plasma welding is heat!.

"As an EE who spent 17 years as a test engineer for military electronics, I'm qualified to say bullshit on that." I though you were a power supply design engineer?
"I've done the FMEA studies." Whats your point?, how did punching a clock for 17 years prove that the components died electrically from other than heat to insulation or semiconductor material, capacitors internal insulation from excessive heat/current or vacuum tubes their day...Isn't that the point of a component specification audit? to try and detect possible failure modes.

yeah, but can you change a tire? lace your own wheel?

I had considered reviving the lucas rita in around 2003 . I bought out Micheal Moore's Rita inventory, And also met with John Carpenter Minstral Engineering. Due to the excessive power consumption I finally decided that the other new offering would make the effort a race to the cheap basement. I bowed out,,,
I have to admit that for as many Ritas ( two main versions) out there I have only had to repair a few. Even after leaving them on by mistake and melting the potting out of some coils. The rita survived eh Bill? May be I should have continued?

Click to expand...

Of the 3 that I had that died I'm quite sure heat was the issue. I lived in Phoenix with over 100 degree heat 4 months of the year. Add to that the engine heat and you have a recipe for problems. The other systems have there control unit away from the points cavity and at least away from the engine heat.
Just my observations.

N0rt0nelectr@ said:

Of the 3 that I had that died I'm quite sure heat was the issue. I lived in Phoenix with over 100 degree heat 4 months of the year. Add to that the engine heat and you have a recipe for problems. The other systems have there control unit away from the points cavity and at least away from the engine heat.
Just my observations.

Click to expand...

When was that?

See this: https://trispark.blogspot.com/2013/02/classic-twin-temperature-testing.html

baz said:

It would be nice to know how many trispark kits have been sold
How many have failed
How much actual mileage they did
How old they were

Click to expand...

Imagine while building units then run out of diodes. eazy peazy. Run over to the shelf and grab a new batch of diodes....different manufacturer or different batch run. Continue building units. ISO 9000 will theoretically document that so when they start dying your serial # will tell you the revision change or component change, or assembler person change...
It's a pain in the butt, but I/we had to live with it for many years. I doubt anything close to this happens at TS or he would be on top of it. Does Kelly ever divulge he knows what is going on, or what failed. Even an "in house production diary" of manufacturing history can help immensely.
I know Lucas Rita had at least 2 version/revision. Having depoted a few boyer MK3 analog I know there are at least 2 different versions. That's how I know that LR and boyer ran the exact same output transistor for a while.
Well I'm not involved so it doesn't really matter...

I can't work out why so many have failed over the years and even replacements have failed so why hasn't it been fixed or why are people still buying them after all the problems, 32 years of running my Boyar EI without any problems at all even when I replaced it with the JH Maggie, people complained about kick back but mine only ever done that twice in those 32 years while on my Norton, but as Jim said the JH maggies can be rebuilt if they do have any problems but after over 8 years on my Norton I haven't touched it and my older one I had on my 81 Triumph Thunderbird I had on for 9 years and 250k km on it without any problem and I brought it second hand, Jim has built in a retard system for starting but mine always start on first kick every time once started for the day, one big swing on the kicker for the first start for the day and 1/2 swing on the kicker after that every time and the best thing no need for a battery.

Ashley

N0rt0nelectr@ said:

Of the 3 that I had that died I'm quite sure heat was the issue. I lived in Phoenix with over 100 degree heat 4 months of the year. Add to that the engine heat and you have a recipe for problems. The other systems have there control unit away from the points cavity and at least away from the engine heat.
Just my observations.

Click to expand...

I live in central Calif where the temp gets over 100F (105) all the time and its a whole different thing compared to temps in the UK and tests printed in brochures etc. For me a Norton isn't getting hot until the oil tank burns you.

ine spends most of its time in NE Tn. and winters in Fl so it NEVER sees temps in the 90s . I dont think it has anything to do with ambient temps.

N0rt0nelectr@ said:

Of the 3 that I had that died I'm quite sure heat was the issue. I lived in Phoenix with over 100 degree heat 4 months of the year. Add to that the engine heat and you have a recipe for problems. The other systems have there control unit away from the points cavity and at least away from the engine heat.
Just my observations.

Click to expand...

I agree with all that Greg Marsh has commented on, I am a Trispark Dealer and fit a great deal to all kind of bikes. The present Classic Twin Trispark unit is not adversely effected by heat or vibration however over the years there have been failures out there and all failures have been analysed and fixes put in place. The failure described here will be one of the Honeywell position sensors that have failed, this we have found was top spec component that did not perform as it should have done and there has been random failures. These Honeywell sensors were replace but another top spec brand and are performing well. I have supplied and fitted over 50 units in the last 12 months and have had none of my customers complain of problems so we are confident that the Trispark units are fully reliable. Now before people get up in arms and criticise remember that the owner of Trispark Steve Kelly is a motorcycle enthusiast and not a big business who runs the business by himself and has two days a week help from his wife, without people like Steve, Jim Schmidt, Jim Comstock we would be running the same old parts that were available 50 years ago Oh and I forgot to mention Ken Cochram of developed the Fullauto heads so I say well done to all of the small businesses helping us to keep our Norton’s on the road and reliable

Well said Gerard!

FWIW I think it would be fantastic if you, or someone like you, posted such info more frequently. People say Steve should come on the forums and give more info, but personally I think that is unrealistic as he would just get hounded but those who are (perhaps quite rightly) dissatisfied.

But to hear some info, like the Honeywell topic, and to hear that constant improvements and problem solving are being carried out, is fantastic.

marshg246 said:

When was that?

See this: https://trispark.blogspot.com/2013/02/classic-twin-temperature-testing.html

Click to expand...

The last one died in September of 2010. It lasted about a year. The day before it died I did a hard ride from Silver City NM to Phoenix due to a family emergency. Got on the bike for a quick run to the store the next day and it made it to the end of the street.
I met up with Jim Comstock and his brother at Lake of the Pines a few years ago. We had gone out to dinner and were headed back when we stopped to pick up some beer. Jim's brothers bike wouldn't restart! Jim rode back to our camp site picked up his spare Tri-Spark and installed it and away we went. If they are so great why did Jim feel he needed to carry a spare? Track record? What does Jim feel about these?

In the time AN have been retailing these with around 100 of them sold -
1 x ACW kit bought and the owner tried fitting to an Atlas, returned, this one is now on my bike. 16,000 plus miles on this one.
1 x where the gap to rotor could not be achieved.
1 x returned with a butchered backplate, it still functioned.

These are the updated type that have been available for years, and if they work in the heat of Australia then that would cover most parts of the planet. The highest atmospheric temp mine has been used in is 39C for 4 hours, just stopping for fuel.

Late to the party as usual...
To come back to the OP's issues, have you measured the gap between the magnet and the stator? Trispark state 2mm and it can't be less?
I guess the test button proves the digital circuits are operational, but I wonder if it would test the trigger sensors, as it's only a static test?
I've found Trispark to be very helpful and responsive to e-mails, and with all due respect to the good folks here, they know more about them than we do.

It's true that poorly specified or cheaply sourced copy/counterfeit components will reduce reliability, but despite the opinions on the forum I've not seen any evidence that this is the case.
From professional experience it's quite shocking how much fakery is out there.

Infant mortality is a fact, and critical systems undergo burn-in testing to weed these out. For consumer electronics the cost isn't worth the bother - just a functional check and let the customer find out

I had an early unit fail after 5 years and I got a replacement (at cost) sent out from Aus within a week. My bike had previously let me down one day due to a poor earth, and I suspect this may well have been a factor.

Previous comments regarding power supply are very pertinent IMHO; spikes, overvoltage surges and poor earth connections are all known electronics killers. It may be that the Trispark is less tolerant than the old nuke-proof designs, but I still had a RITA fail on me many years ago.

Who can categorically state that their electrics are 100% to spec? All it takes is a slightly corroded kill switch...
I read years ago of one of the Daytona Triples having a misfire which was worse at high revs, and couldn't be cured by replacing pretty much everything - until they discovered the paperclip they'd taped to the handlebar as a kill switch was vibrating and shorting out.

The DMC ignition on my Bevel Ducati failed on me once, but when I investigated it turned out the bike's regulator had failed (Italian electrics, eh ) and the DMC unit had sensed the overvoltage and shut itself down before it got damaged. What peed me off was that I could have got it home if I'd just unplugged the alternator...

N0rt0nelectr@ said:

The last one died in September of 2010. It lasted about a year. The day before it died I did a hard ride from Silver City NM to Phoenix due to a family emergency. Got on the bike for a quick run to the store the next day and it made it to the end of the street.
I met up with Jim Comstock and his brother at Lake of the Pines a few years ago. We had gone out to dinner and were headed back when we stopped to pick up some beer. Jim's brothers bike wouldn't restart! Jim rode back to our camp site picked up his spare Tri-Spark and installed it and away we went. If they are so great why did Jim feel he needed to carry a spare? Track record? What does Jim feel about these?

Click to expand...

I really cannot speak for 10 years ago as I have no direct knowledge. I've posted my numbers sold and the failures. So has AN. So has Gerard Rowley. In my case and ANs, our experience is from 2016 on when the current version began. Gerard gave numbers for the last year but I think has been selling much longer Basically, IMHO, there is no Tri-Spark issue today.

I would like to get this resolved. A couple of options:

Preferred: Everyone tell me their story on electronic ignitions and I'll compile them into a web page like I'm doing with Commando identification.

Tri-Spark only: Everyone keep this thread going and say the good or bad about Tri-Spark, but include the age of the unit, how long it lasted, the bike, and where in the world it is being used.

B+Bogus said:

I had an early unit fail after 5 years and I got a replacement (at cost) sent out from Aus within a week. My bike had previously let me down one day due to a poor earth, and I suspect this may well have been a factor.

Click to expand...

True, considering that the Tri Spark gets its ground from the timing cover. A typical Commando engine ground comes through the head steady which can be unpredictable. When I adjust timing I run a separate ground wire because I have to loosen the stud that normally grounds the ignition. Perhaps a dedicated ground wire to the module would help eliminate some failures.

My early model classic twin failed after 10 years from over voltage (failed r/r).

marshg246 said:

Preferred: Everyone tell me their story on electronic ignitions and I'll compile them into a web page like I'm doing with Commando identification.

Tri-Spark only: Everyone keep this thread going and say the good or bad about Tri-Spark, but include the age of the unit, how long it lasted, the bike, and where in the world it is being used.

Click to expand...

My first EI was a Boyer MKIII back in the early 80's. Suffered the typical pickup wire failures a couple times until the day when it wouldn't rev above 4000 rpm. That was about 25 years of service. Replaced it with a new one and was OK for another 6 years until I replaced it with a Tri-Spark for its idle stabilization feature. That failed after 10 years (last Summer) from what I'm convinced was a high voltage issue. I have another one on the bike now.

Located in Southern New England, bike is a 74 MKII.

maylar said:

Perhaps a dedicated ground wire to the module would help eliminate some failure.

Click to expand...

Now that is a good idea, and easy to do. The Tri-Spark unit comes with a built in earth wire designed to be fastened to the pillar screw via an eyelet.

Simply change the eyelet for a bullet and run the earth with to a central earth point.

Dunno why I never thought of that before...

"Tri-Spark only: Everyone keep this thread going and say the good or bad about Tri-Spark, but include the age of the unit, how long it lasted, the bike, and where in the world it is being used."

Tri Spark installed 2008 in my 1973 850 Commando; same unit still working flawlessly. It is installed with the standard points cover - no venting of any kind. Coils are the dual original-style ignition coils. Bike has been in Mexico since '06, frequently operating in 100+F temps all day. The TS was originally installed with the standard Lucas charging system/alternator from '08-'12. In 12 I installed an Alton E-start and since then the charging system has been the Alton alternator/Podtronics. I added a 12 gauge ground wire bolted to the engine at the head steady bolt shortly after buying the bike in '06. The TS has been totally reliable; I pay no attention to it at all.

I posted this once before: https://trispark.blogspot.com/2013/02/classic-twin-temperature-testing.html and this is worth reading: https://trispark.blogspot.com/2013/02/classic-twin-redesigned-for-2013.html

Basically, if you have the test button, you're unit was made 2013 or later and is not the same design as the earlier units. The redesigned version can withstand reversed polarity, 24 volts continuously, 200 volt spikes, and at least 100 degrees C (212 F).

If you have four numbers around the edge (e,g, 16, 17, 18, 19) then your unit was made the year of the number with a scratch through it. I think the date coding started in 2016 with the revision e.

Fast Eddie said:

Now that is a good idea, and easy to do. The Tri-Spark unit comes with a built in earth wire designed to be fastened to the pillar screw via an eyelet.

Simply change the eyelet for a bullet and run the earth with to a central earth point.

Dunno why I never thought of that before...

Click to expand...

This is a "I like it", "I hate it" thing. I like anything that improves a ground, but I don't like covering up the real problem which this could do. Running a separate ground while timing is a good idea that I will do with a jumper wire from now on.

I've seen several bikes where the ground wire (usually 3 wires in an eyelet) is under one of the nuts on the head steady - wrong! I've also seen it where it is connected to the frame - extremely wrong. It needs to be under one of the socket bolts that bolt the head stead to the head - that ensures that the engine is grounded.

No matter what type of ignition system, including points, the ground to the coils and the ground to the engine must be perfect for the system to run properly. This is especially true for ET. Remember that the case of the coil is not a part of the circuit.

One side of the high voltage winding in the ignition coil connects to low voltage winding and the other to the spark plug. So the complete circuit is through the low voltage winding to ground and from the high voltage coil to the spark plug to ground.

Points interrupt ground. Most ET systems provide 12 volts to the coil(s) and the coil(s) has/have a direct ground.

I had two that were pre 2010 but they were on triples. I fitted one to the Commando in 2013, my T120 in 2016 and T140 in 2018.

They have been used to replace Boyer, Lucas and Wassell. They have usually provided better starting, plus always better tick over and low speed running. One of the triples benefited a very healthy power increase. The anti kick back function is always a welcome feature, it’s the kind of thing I forget about altogether until I see some poor soul without a Tri-Spark getting kicked like a mule!

So far, I’ve not had one fail.

ludwig said:

Mine was an early one (2012)
Out of curiosity I plotted the advance curve and asked Kelly for confirmation before posting it.
I believe it can still be found somewhere on the forum.
Weary about the heat issue, I took all possible precautions.
It failed a good year later after 10000 km. Maybe less.
What pissed me off was that Kelly wanted $75 for an improved (?) replacement. Not my idea of a warranty.

I don't think my ground connection was to blame:

Did someone ever plotted the advance of the current version?

Click to expand...

Actually, you have no ground connection! Grounding to the frame does nothing unless you have the frame grounded somewhere. If you still have a Zener, it's possible a frame ground is there - same with a bridge rectifier, but there's a reason there is a red wire to both - the frame is not a ground!