Tri Spark woes

Still seems strange number one cut out two miles out, yet number two took me to Norwich and back (160 miles)… Same bike, no changes elsewhere in the system..

Seems like the Tri-Spark installed base numbers are reaching the point where a significant failure rate is growing into focus.

Boyer of course was first to get there, they sold the most units being first in the market. So, their failure numbers years later look bad.

Then Sparx seemed to be getting bad-mouthed, but PROBABLY only because their installed base numbers grew to a point where they became significant.

There isn't a perfect ignition...

It doesn't matter if it's electronics or mechanical bits. If you run them near the limits -then you will see more failures.

And any electronic part bolted to a hot motor and shaken is going to be near it's limits.

A current carrying transistor requires some type of heat sink to get rid of the heat generated by the junction. Using a hot motor as a heat sink is simply a bad idea.

EstuaryBoy said:

Still seems strange number one cut out two miles out, yet number two took me to Norwich and back (160 miles)… Same bike, no changes elsewhere in the system..

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Well my guess is you're not an excruciatingly skilled engineer and have even less ability to detect the internal differences in component tolerances or differences in their thermal positioning. I would still bet the failure mode may be very difficult to attribute to the module or the bike.
The failure analysis will certainly not come from me, as I have no $take in thi$ problematic product.

Yet modern bikes and cars have no issues with e-ignitions. Why should it be difficult to make one that works on a Commando? Perhaps one reason is that makers of aftermarket ignition systems have to start with a baseline - the OEM electrical system. Then, when everybody changes their electrical system with the intent of "improving" it, that baseline, upon which the aftermarket system was based, no longer exists.

It would be almost impossible for small makers of aftermarket ignitions to test the system on all the current permutations of Norton Commando electrical systems. Different wiring, different voltage regulators, different typed of batteries, different types of lighting (incandescent/LED), different ign coils, etc which may result in completely different voltage/current parameters than the aftermarket ignition system was originally designed to work with.

Of course we can say that "heat" is the problem but since many TS's work fine with that same heat over many years, it seems there is more to it...

dynodave said:

Well my guess is you're not an excruciatingly skilled engineer and have even less ability to detect the internal differences in component tolerances or differences in their thermal positioning. I would still bet the failure mode may be very difficult to attribute to the module or the bike.
The failure analysis will certainly not come from me, as I have no $take in thi$ problematic product.

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I have no trouble buying a hat, though
Bottom line is no matter what my qualifications may or may not be, at the end of the day I'm still the consumer, so anything I purchase must be: 'Of merchantable quality and fit for purpose..'.. in this case to fire up my motorcycle.
That the first failed in a short time to do that, yet the second seems to be up to the job makes me think in this case maybe the first was faulty, simplistic maybe but not beyond the realms of credibility.. The: 'whys and hows' are for the supplier to address, as I assume if there was doubt in his mind as to whether the fault was with the bike he would baulk at throwing good parts after bad?

Fast Eddie said:

It seems to me that the root cause of the Tri Spark reliability’s issues some have must be elsewhere within their electrical system on their machines.

This doesn’t get Tri Spark off the hook however, I suggest they should be looking at these failures more closely and design their units to be more able to withstand such variable issues.

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I've been installing a selling Tri-Spark since Oct 2016. They are revision E units so I have no direct knowledge of the earlier units. The only unit I've personally found bad was a original version.

I've installed or sold 24 for Triumph Twins, no failures

I've installed or sold 54 for Norton Twins/BSA & Triumph Singles
1 failed on install - didn't pass the first self test

I've installed or sold 30 for Triumph Triples
1 failed on install - one cylinder not working
2 failed in the same bike (4 total failures). The guy had an original fail, Steve replaced it, that failed, Steve replaced it, that failed and the guy bought from me after telling me his story. I told him everything to check and to quit worrying about heat. Of course, that failed and I sent a warranty replacement and made him promise to install it without all his "heat modifications". He's now running fine. Steve analyzed that last failed unit and found an intermittent output transistor.

On the ones that failed on install, the assumption was a bad unit but shorting the wire to the coil to ground briefly blows the output transistor.

Maybe I've been lucky.

BTW, if you're in the US and you buy from a US dealer, you should have a replacement in 2-3 days. There's no need to send to Tri-Spark for replacement.

I am not an engineer by any stretch. I am just throwing this thought out there for consideration. Concerning why some bikes have continuing issues with the unit and others run continuously makes one wonder what is unique about the bike. I was thinking perhaps variations the tapered shaft the rotor mounts can cause problems. No doubt the distance between the rotor and the electronic module will vary from bike to bike. Is it possible that distance is such that it is at the limits of the unit to function properly? And that leads to this question, if the spacing between the magnets are at the greatest or beyond the specs what would one do?

dynodave said:

Any one in electronics should easily agree it is ALWAYS heat failure.

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As an EE who spent 17 years as a test engineer for military electronics, I'm qualified to say bullshit on that. There are other failure modes such as vibration and over voltage that can take a toll on electronics assemblies. There's also something called infant mortality that describes individual component failures as a function of time. I've done the FMEA studies.

My own TriSpark worked perfectly for 10 years until it and all the other electronic devices on my bike were fried by a misbehaving rectifier/regulator.

Since the TS classic twin gets its ground through the engine cases, it's vital that the engine ground be solid. I recommend that anyone experiencing trouble thoroughly inspect and reinforce your grounds.

Notice my signature, "Just one sheep...",

That's there because I was an early TriSpark failure and I got labeled as being some kind of idiot cuz my bike ate two of them. Here we are, years later and the mystery still has not been completely solved. However, if I were to run one now and buy them from Matt, I would make sure that my charging system and coil was exactly what Matt asked me to run in conjunction with them. At least that way when you return them for warranty you don't have to feel quite so guilty.

PS - If you don't get the reference to "Just one sheep...", Google "just one sheep joke". The basic moral of the tale is that you will be labeled not for all the good stuff you do, but for your lowest moment.

Guido said:

Matt at CNW said he would replace it for the second time. I was just hoping there was something else I should look for.
Didn't want to keep asking Matt for replacements.
Is there a better unit I should be looking at?

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After 3 of them had died in my 74 850, over a period of time, I went to Pazon and in over 10 years of use not one problem.

We all tend to go with our personal experience so I certainly can't argue with folks who had bad personal experiences with a TS, or a Boyer, or a Rita, or a Pazon, or...etc. I had bad experiences with Boyer and would never buy another one; other folks have had Boyers for may years with no problems. I have had no bad experience with the TS over 11 years and 25k miles. So my view is skewed in favor of the TS

But it is interesting that, other than the periodic maintenance required, there seems to no problems with the OEM ignition...

MexicoMike said:

But it is interesting that, other than the periodic maintenance required, there seems to no problems with the OEM ignition...

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Actually the OEM charging system and ignition are just fine. But, in my experience, people new to vintage British bikes have little to no mechanical skills. I have three bikes in my shop right now from people 45-55 years old and trying to get their first British bike on the road and I've worked with a couple more. The good news is that younger people are slowly joining us, but many don't even know what points are!

MexicoMike said:

But it is interesting that, other than the periodic maintenance required, there seems to no problems with the OEM ignition..

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I still have my originals. If I could get new weights for them I'd put them back on, with a GM HEI module to handle the load.

It's true, points work.

But here is one of the reasons that EI is so popular. You have a bike that hasn't run in years. You get it started and go through the ritual of trying to get the ignition set correctly, timing, and getting the carbs figured out. You spend hours messing with carbs, you spend hours messing with the ignition and it still isn't quite right.

Then you install a TriSpark and get to concentrate on nothing but carbs and next thing you know, you are riding a bike that feels well tuned.

Who doesn't like that? If your carbs are worn and your AAU is worn, you can spend a long time and never solve it. I'm not saying the TriSpark is the only EI that will do this for you, but it will do that for you if you buy one and do it well. The failure rate aside. And no, I don't run one now. I went to Pazon. Doesn't mean I don't miss the TriSpark. Loved that easy idle stabilization!

The EIs run the cleanest when they're working but require a battery. I prefer simplicity and reliability and that's what I'm getting with the current version of the JH mag - no batteries to replace. Fat spark on 1st revolution makes for easy starting.

I'd prefer an ARD style pointless magneto redesigned with a stronger rotor shaft (out of business). The market is wide open here. Somebody step up. Its a sure thing.

Well if you look at recips on airplanes they all that I worked on, but one, have mags.

maylar said:

As an EE who spent 17 years as a test engineer for military electronics, I'm qualified to say bullshit on that. There are other failure modes such as vibration and over voltage that can take a toll on electronics assemblies. There's also something called infant mortality that describes individual component failures as a function of time. I've done the FMEA studies.

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Up to and including a 5 pound sledge hammer can cause a MECHANICAL failure.
It would be more constructive if you understood, I am talking about electronic failure.

Infant mortality is still electronic death?
"over voltage that can take a toll on electronics assemblies" extreme over voltage again failure from heat... plasma welding is heat!.

"As an EE who spent 17 years as a test engineer for military electronics, I'm qualified to say bullshit on that." I though you were a power supply design engineer?
"I've done the FMEA studies." Whats your point?, how did punching a clock for 17 years prove that the components died electrically from other than heat to insulation or semiconductor material, capacitors internal insulation from excessive heat/current or vacuum tubes their day...Isn't that the point of a component specification audit? to try and detect possible failure modes.

yeah, but can you change a tire? lace your own wheel?

I had considered reviving the lucas rita in around 2003 . I bought out Micheal Moore's Rita inventory, And also met with John Carpenter Minstral Engineering. Due to the excessive power consumption I finally decided that the other new offering would make the effort a race to the cheap basement. I bowed out,,,
I have to admit that for as many Ritas ( two main versions) out there I have only had to repair a few. Even after leaving them on by mistake and melting the potting out of some coils. The rita survived eh Bill? May be I should have continued?

MexicoMike said:

Of course we can say that "heat" is the problem but since many TS's work fine with that same heat over many years,

...

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I would mostly agree except my wording is different, "heat is the problem". The components being out of spec in one way or the other... or selected improperly, such as the item desired is not commercially available. Therefore component heat failure is the final condition. The installation on various bikes may differ and certainly contribute to component overheating problems. I do note the large number of TS revisions. I have only dissected one TS that did have a failed output coil drive transistor. No other previous installation details.

MexicoMike said:

it seems there is more to it...

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+1 fully agree
Tough being the beta group...-$

It would be nice if all Tri-Spark failures going forward stated the year marked on them. For instance, the one I'm looking at has 4 numbers around the edge. 16, 17, 18, 19 and the 18 has a scratch through it. Many people seem to have been turned off by Tri-Spark before I started using them. I agree that all versions should have been reliable if they weren't.

Every few months, a new thread is started about a Tri-Spark failure and then we all tell our experiences and never resolve anything. I don't know the the world-wide failure rate or even how many are in existence. We could be hearing the tiny few who have had problems, or there could be a massive problem - who knows!