To FullAuto owners, needed a file before mounting?

NKN · Oct 22, 2016

Just received # 164 FullAuto, first impressions is that I like the new old look. What I'm trying to say is that even if brand new, it has some cosmetic "defects" that make it look like a NOS part. Fins are not all exactly perfectly the same just like on a RD 400 for example and i like it like that. Also for that, but not only of course.

To FullAuto owners, needed a file before mounting?

On the other side, did other buyers needed to file it before mounting?

I am a little surprised for a CNC machined part. And "inside" threads already looks tired, no?

Ken, FullAuto's boss explained me that it would be too expensive to check heads one by one.

Questions are:
- Are all Fullauto heads slightly unfinished like this and so it is normal?

Or is it just me? :roll: I agree French quality is not always on top, and I'm more used to Swiss and German ones. Buying new parts for my and a lot of others old BMW, it was always plug and play, no worries, what ever part it is, a simple screw, barrels, piston or whatsoever.

Today, with BMW parts coming from China, it's a little different :?

jug · Oct 22, 2016

Just looked over mine, #160 and its faultless. And no, I haven't fitted it yet.

Been getting my Shovelhead together.
JUG

Towner · Oct 23, 2016

All this dents at the fins would be no problem for me, but the poorly made threaded holes would annoy me as well.

Fast Eddie · Oct 23, 2016

I won't comment on the threads as its too difficult to tell much from the photo.

But as for the other 'issues' ... The head looks dreadful. Its little more scrap metal really. I'll help you out though, charitable chap that I am, I'll swap it for my full re-furbished, original 1974 RH10 cylinder head.

Deal ?

Matchless · Oct 23, 2016

I have to say that whilst I was disappointed with mine from an aesthetic point of view, overall it is far better than any original Norton twin head I have ever seen. Perhaps the only way to make the casting perfect is to die cast them. This would probably mean they cost £10,000 each instead of £2000 given the small volume production.
Back in the real world I am very grateful to Ken that new heads are available.

Fixodent. · Oct 23, 2016

Not wishing to upset any one with more Norton experience than my self (i.e zero) and being new tor the forum but I think IMHO that NKN is not wrong in pointing out what he is not happy with. These faults don't look like they would cause a brakdown but with the carburettor and the cylinder head the manufacturers can do better. What other parts do forum members have complaints about? I ask this because i would like very much too buy a Commando but want as little problems as possible. Thanks.

Fast Eddie · Oct 23, 2016

Fixodent. said:
Not wishing to upset any one with more Norton experience than my self (i.e zero) and being new tor the forum but I think IMHO that NKN is not wrong in pointing out what he is not happy with. These faults don't look like they would cause a brakdown but with the carburettor and the cylinder head the manufacturers can do better. What other parts do forum members have complaints about? I ask this because i would like very much too buy a Commando but want as little problems as possible. Thanks.

The issue regarding casting imperfections in FA heads have been raised here before. The thing is though, what is an imperfection? Especially on a sand casted process? Basically, there is no such thing as a perfect sand casted component.

I am not fortunate enough to own a FA head, but did look into the idea long and hard. There is no comparison between a FA head and an original from an aesthetic perspective. The originals look like factory rejects when put next to a FA! I suspect that FA customers have raised expectations due to the outlay they have invested and inspect them far closer than they would any stock head.

If some thing is supplied in a way that is different to its description, or if something is not fit for purpose, this is an entirely different matter of course.

Onder · Oct 23, 2016

Maybe better to ask the seller these questions first. After all you did buy it from him and not from us.

MichaelB · Oct 23, 2016

Fixodent. said:
... I ask this because i would like very much too buy a Commando but want as little problems as possible. Thanks.

Not sure that's possible....
All due respect, a Commando may not be for you. It is a never ending journey of Love and Agony................

cjandme · Oct 23, 2016

Well, I too am not fortunate enough to own one yet, but the improved flow and better aluminum alloy used in making them, seems worth the cost in my book. I believe that we are all lucky that they are even available to us in this day and age. I remember a time when you really had to scrounge for parts, now it's a smorgasbord, from cranks to lighter pistons & longer rods to electric start replacement primary's , belt drive options, complete replacement TTi gear boxes, new cylinder heads, new brake kits, rear set foot control options, digital clocks, improved rear swing arms, etc...etc...etc... there has never been a better time to own and ride a Norton

lcrken · Oct 23, 2016

NKN said:
Or is it just me? :roll:

No insult intended, but I think you might have unrealistic expectations for the quality you get from even a very good sand casting. Compared to a stock Norton head, the quality of these is far superior. You're looking at what are really minor cosmetic details that have no effect on function. I have no doubt that Ken could produce something that would be close to perfect, even by your standards, but to do so would require more detailed inspection and the resultant scrapping of many heads. If you scrap half the heads to ensure a higher level of artistic perfection, you have to at least double the price. Not realistic for this market. I agree that the threads don't look that nice, but probably work just fine for their purpose. Being a little compulsive myself, I'd probably install inserts, knowing all the while that I didn't really need to.

Along with most of the other forum members here, I'm just grateful to Ken for the time and money he's invested in making these available. I'm sure his return on investment is still ridiculously low, so it's clearly a labor of love.

Ken

acotrel · Oct 23, 2016

Ken came to see me a few months back and showed me his 750 cylinder head. The quality is superb. I was obviously not looking for cosmetic flaws - do they affect performance ? The ISO 9000 definition of quality is 'fit for purpose' and a better definition is 'fit for purpose with obvious attention to detail'. I wonder if in a few years time people will be taking Fullauto cylinder heads to be evaluated on the Antiques Road Show ( British TV programme) ? If you are buying one of Ken's heads simply to make your road bike look better, perhaps you should buy yourself a Vespa motor-scooter and add lots of driving lights and badges to it ?

triumph2 · Oct 23, 2016

I'm surprised that the threads are cut when a forming tap would do a better job and give a stronger thread.

splatt · Oct 23, 2016

jug said:
Just looked over mine, #160 and its faultless. And no, I haven't fitted it yet. Been getting my Shovelhead together.
JUG

Are you going to fit yours ?, I opened the box had a good look , went out to the shed , looked at my bike and thought, I'm not fitting that head to this pile of crap as it sits.
Need to buy a few more goodies.
#168 appears ok, but I haven't enlarged it like the pictured one

Mark · Oct 23, 2016

NKN said:
On the other side, did other buyers needed to file it before mounting?

Inadequate quality control processes.
A lack of attention to detail, the machinist should have caught that.

jug · Oct 24, 2016

splatt said:
jug said:

Just looked over mine, #160 and its faultless. And no, I haven't fitted it yet. Been getting my Shovelhead together.
JUG

Click to expand...

Are you going to fit yours ?, I opened the box had a good look , went out to the shed , looked at my bike and thought, I'm not fitting that head to this pile of crap as it sits.
Need to buy a few more goodies.
#168 appears ok, but I haven't enlarged it like the pictured one

Soon as the Shovelhead is a runner, She is all going together. Been all over mine fitted the valves etc etc. Sitting in my walk in robe with all the rest of the engine ( KEN, JIM & MAT's parts)

NKN · Oct 24, 2016

Mark said:
NKN said:

On the other side, did other buyers needed to file it before mounting?

Click to expand...

Inadequate quality control processes.
A lack of attention to detail, the machinist should have caught that.

Towner said:
but the poorly made threaded holes would annoy me as well.

Ouch, for at least two of you, I'm not that excessive and demanding :roll: Perhaps we should meet, you deserve a fresh beer

BTW thanks for "straight" reading, understanding and answering following the thread spirit.

For others:

Towner said:
All this dents at the fins would be no problem for me

Fast Eddie said:
But as for the other 'issues' ...

Matchless said:
Perhaps the only way to make the casting perfect is to die cast them.

Fast Eddie said:
The issue regarding casting imperfections in FA heads have been raised here before. The thing is though, what is an imperfection? Especially on a sand casted process? Basically, there is no such thing as a perfect sand casted component.

lcrken said:
No insult intended, but I think you might have unrealistic expectations for the quality you get from even a very good sand casting.

Ken

Looks like I might have been misunderstood because I am not complaining about cosmetic. Just take time to read again, because I don't think it's about my little English this time:

Just received # 164 FullAuto, first impressions is that I like the new old look. What I'm trying to say is that even if brand new, it has some cosmetic "defects" that make it look like a NOS part. Fins are not all exactly perfectly the same just like on a RD 400 for example AND I LIKE IT LIKE THAT. Also for that, but not only of course.

Onder said:
Maybe better to ask the seller these questions first. After all you did buy it from him and not from us.

Read again, it was done ;-)

As I said here:

Also for that, but not only of course.

OK in a very few words, but it is what I'm thinking. So thanks to the followers that have helped me describing it and saving me some time consuming in translating

Fast Eddie said:
The head looks dreadful.

Matchless said:
overall it is far better than any original Norton twin head I have ever seen.

cjandme said:
but the improved flow and better aluminum alloy used in making them, seems worth the cost in my book. I believe that we are all lucky that they are even available to us in this day and age. I remember a time when you really had to scrounge for parts, now it's a smorgasbord, from cranks to lighter pistons & longer rods to electric start replacement primary's , belt drive options, complete replacement TTi gear boxes, new cylinder heads, new brake kits, rear set foot control options, digital clocks, improved rear swing arms, etc...etc...etc... there has never been a better time to own and ride a Norton

lcrken said:
Compared to a stock Norton head, the quality of these is far superior. You're looking at what are really minor cosmetic details that have no effect on function. I have no doubt that Ken could produce something that would be close to perfect, even by your standards, but to do so would require more detailed inspection and the resultant scrapping of many heads. If you scrap half the heads to ensure a higher level of artistic perfection, you have to at least double the price. Not realistic for this market. I agree that the threads don't look that nice, but probably work just fine for their purpose. Being a little compulsive myself, I'd probably install inserts, knowing all the while that I didn't really need to.

Along with most of the other forum members here, I'm just grateful to Ken for the time and money he's invested in making these available. I'm sure his return on investment is still ridiculously low, so it's clearly a labor of love.

Ken

Voilà voilà, have a nice day.

NKN · Oct 24, 2016

deleted duplicate

J. M. Leadbeater · Oct 24, 2016

Clearly made to British standards...why do a job correctly?/ Quality Control whats that??........ Just like the heads produced by NVT when they took in house casting the porous lumps but apparently,so I am often told, great fun can be had trying to weld fins back on the ******* lumps! wonder what the pattern makers in Doncaster would say if they saw one of these heads?
I really must make it to Duxford one last time and take a look at the beautiful fins on those WW2 Americal aero engines....if they could do it why cannot others these days. Yee gods it isnt as if the fin depth is anything like as great on the Norton head......Of course if the pratts in charge at NVT had not had all the patterns burnt as they(mismanagement) went around telling the World they would never be producing such things again.....as Mr Negus reminded me many years ago as he showed me the first off new 750 / 820 crankcase manufactured on the new patterns they had made.....Of course i did ask him ' where is the camshaft oil bath Mr Hopwood so carefully designed into his Dominator engine?' and quoted Mr Hopwoods letter to me .... 'The camshaft oil bath was designed to retain as much oil as possible.....the lip should run within 1/8 to 3/32 of the flywheel rim to pick up oil from it........' The next time I visited I was told it was tooo expensive to have the crank case pattern modified.......so whenever a friend builds a new 920 motor for a customer he has to reintroduce the oil bath into the expensive brand new crank cases....

baz · Oct 24, 2016

J. M. Leadbeater said:
Clearly made to British standards...why do a job correctly?/ Quality Control whats that??........ Just like the heads produced by NVT when they took in house casting the porous lumps but apparently,so I am often told, great fun can be had trying to weld fins back on the ******* lumps! wonder what the pattern makers in Doncaster would say if they saw one of these heads?
I really must make it to Duxford one last time and take a look at the beautiful fins on those WW2 Americal aero engines....if they could do it why cannot others these days. Yee gods it isnt as if the fin depth is anything like as great on the Norton head......Of course if the pratts in charge at NVT had not had all the patterns burnt as they(mismanagement) went around telling the World they would never be producing such things again.....as Mr Negus reminded me many years ago as he showed me the first off new 750 / 820 crankcase manufactured on the new patterns they had made.....Of course i did ask him ' where is the camshaft oil bath Mr Hopwood so carefully designed into his Dominator engine?' and quoted Mr Hopwoods letter to me .... 'The camshaft oil bath was designed to retain as much oil as possible.....the lip should run within 1/8 to 3/32 of the flywheel rim to pick up oil from it........' The next time I visited I was told it was tooo expensive to have the crank case pattern modified.......so whenever a friend builds a new 920 motor for a customer he has to reintroduce the oil bath into the expensive brand new crank cases....

That's hilarious ,how to get from cylinder head enquiry to missing crankcase oil bath!!!!!

To FullAuto owners, needed a file before mounting?

NKN

jug

Towner

Fast Eddie

Matchless

Fixodent.

Fast Eddie

Onder

MichaelB

"Sons of Arthritus"

cjandme

lcrken

acotrel

triumph2

splatt

Mark

jug

NKN

NKN

J. M. Leadbeater

baz

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