Sludge Trap

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
71
Country flag
Hi All,

I have had a few issues with my commie and this site has proved very usefull as it handles and rides like a dream now. I have flushed and replaced the oil since owning the bike but am worried there still maybe oil sludge in the crank case. Im not even sure they have a trap as i havent pulled it down all the way yet. Should i be concerned. I did pull the oil tank off and cleaned the sludge out of that plus new filter and quality oil.
Regards
Connie
 
If all is well with the engine then leave it alone. There is a sludge trap in the crank shaft but as it is just a void inside the crank and means stripping the hole engine and crank assembly its best left until some other issue means it's time to overall things.
Regular oil and oil filter changes will be fine until then. Using oils which have detergent additives (most oils you buy these days do unless it specifically says so) will keep thing clean.

Now get ready for a flood of oil this or filter that replies :lol:
 
Hi Connie.
Oil won't sludge in the crankcases unless left to rot in there for years.
The crankshaft acts as a centrifuge so particles are forced out of suspension.
The 'sludge' inside the crankshaft is hard packed and doesn't cause a problem (weight balance maybe over time).
The problem comes when the trap is full and particles get through to the bearings.
Preventative solution: change oil and filters regularly to keep oil particle free so sludge doesn't accumulate.
Ta.
 
As reviewed its a non issue to clean sludge trap unless set up outside so water can rust insides to clog hole to rod shells but other wise they all collect a 1/8inch layer of nano dust that hard cakes to best oil flow stream line path and stops building up any more as oil just flows/flushes unrestricted from then on, I have opened two cranks with oil filters installed and good oil changes but found almost same amount of crank sludge as 30 yr collection. Solvents do little to remove this hard metal semi-ceramic cake, only hand scrapping does. Next layer of expected sludge froms in oil tank bottom. The factory nip up of crank fasteners is hard to reach again so more likely opening crank will be counter productive d/t the fasteners loosening after your best efforts.
 
needing said:
The 'sludge' inside the crankshaft is hard packed and doesn't cause a problem (weight balance maybe over time).

I believe this is a leftover from days gone by of no filter and, more importantly, little to no detergents in the oil. Has anyone out there recently opened a crank that has been run exclusively with modern oils? I'm curious how much buildup would be found. As for the balance concerns, the cavity is pretty well centered in the rotation plane, so shouldn't cause any balance issues.

Nathan
 
Nater_Potater said:
needing said:
The 'sludge' inside the crankshaft is hard packed and doesn't cause a problem (weight balance maybe over time).

As for the balance concerns, the cavity is pretty well centered in the rotation plane, so shouldn't cause any balance issues.

Nathan

The cavity should always be full of something. I can't imagine any difference in weight between a cavity filled with dirty sludge or clean oil.
 
mschmitz57 said:
The cavity should always be full of something. I can't imagine any difference in weight between a cavity filled with dirty sludge or clean oil.
Ha! Good point!
 
mschmitz57 said:
Nater_Potater said:
needing said:
The 'sludge' inside the crankshaft is hard packed and doesn't cause a problem (weight balance maybe over time).

As for the balance concerns, the cavity is pretty well centered in the rotation plane, so shouldn't cause any balance issues.

Nathan

The cavity should always be full of something. I can't imagine any difference in weight between a cavity filled with dirty sludge or clean oil.

Well spotted! Yes. The densities would be minimal difference.
Ta.
 
No amount of sludge in the crank sludge trap is going to effect the vibes caused by two pistons going up and down together......However over the years I have found it can restrict th oil flow to the drive side big end....... That sludge could of been building up since the motor was first built many decades ago and who is to say that the previous owners did not run around with blocked oil filters only flowing oil through the filter bye pass thus shoving crap back to the oil tank and then back into the motor????
However the REAL IMPORTANT REASON for examining the inside of the crank is to ensure the pratts at AMC / whatever they were called when the motor was built have not left a perfect example of a stress raiser within the Drive Side crank half DIRECTLY BENEATH AND IN PERFECT LINE with the big ends outer 90 thou STRESS REDUCING radius which is rather pointless when some pratt leaves a stress RAISER directly beneath it enabling that crank half to easily become two piece taking much of the motor with it as it does so. The drawings showed that the drill used to clean out the inside should be taken right into the web leaving the sharp outer edge also within the web where it would do no harm and many years later Mr Negus had the drawing amended to ensure the instructions were a lot more prominent but as the test maching of new crank halves was so expensive he told me non were to be produced.
When my olde 99 crank cracked but stayed together at this point as it sounded like a totally knackered traction engine I ASSUMED the crank grinder had cocked things up but when our olde Atlas crank failed big time when leading a race at Oulton Park I sent the two bits of drive side crank to a friend for examination to determine why it had failed. With 20 years experiece as a metallurgist in th steel industry and with his own public works metallurgical lab up in Gateshead he quickly phoned asking ' Who was the idiot who introduced that stress raiser into the crank at a point of maximum stress...your crank shows that it had been slowly breaking for a long time before finally going bang'. The Gentleman then explained to me all about stress raisers(G.E.C. were paying for the phone call!!) and described stress raisers as ' something every Engineering student learns about for a few hours but which they then forget in later life resulting in many innocent people losing their lives' quoting as examples the De Havilland Comet airliners that fell out of the sky till someone eventually realised there was a problem!! and the early U.S.A. built Liberty ships that would break in two very easily and probably doing in the middle of the Atlantic during a force 8 /9 gale in a convoy and suddenly disappearing beneath the waves damn nigh instantly taking all the crew with it as it carried to us the steel, guns, aircraft, food, bombs, tractors, thermionic valves, aircraft etc etc we were incapable of producing thanks to previous decades of government and industrial incompetence.(Nothing has changed since either ..I dont refer to the C.B.i. as The Confederation of British Incompetence for nothing!!)).
A friend and I had a certain aircraft company who shall remain nameless check our spare D.S cranks and a couple went straight into the scrap bin.
I phoned one friend to tell him all about the stress raiser I thought I had found and he replied, not for the first time I should add, 'Oh I thought you knew all about it, i have been removing it from my and customers road and race cranks for years, they break if you dont'. I will NOT say what I then said.
Suggested reading for many Commando and Dommy owners is http://a20b767e.magix.net/#xl_xr_page_1
Read and learn. Belt users might like to paruse the section on belts and all owners suffering from cam failure should read the section on that subject!!......
Of course one day soon when death attacks for the 5th and hopefully final time I will stop learning but till then..... Some of us have had the gods look after us.....exactly why I have no idea unless it is to wind up Norton owners!!!
Remember that Commando serialised rebuild in Classic Bike a while back?? Was there ant mention of checking the crank for the stress raiser or reinstalling into the crankcases the camshaft oil bath Mr Hopwood and others so very carefully designed into the original Dominator crank cases to ensure the cam was correctly lubricated????
 
I just stripped the crank on my 750, its never been apart. Not one ounce of sludge. :)
I wouldn't be concerned.
JUG
 
Scary to guess here and hope for the best. The only one I've seen (a '71 Commando) was packed solid with metal paste. No indication of a problem running. Detergent oil 20W50.
 
I can only assume that either modern oils along with a regularly changed filter in the return line reduce the crap collected in the sludge trap and reduce the problem. The sludge trap being introduced long before high detergent oils and oil filters. Personally I ran on R 40 that came in unmarked gallon cans and cost me nothing...as used by people who won certain championships not that the adverts by the oil company concerned stated they used R of course....plus oil filters were not employed on motor cycles in my younger days when we played on them (and with them ...somehow they did not appreciate running around at max revs most of the time but we were young and knew no better. So how many miles had that clean crank completed since new ?
 
I have been inside two cranks each two times, One with oil filter long installed another w/o any filter, both had same 1/8 streamling layer with wide open passages to the shells. 2ND time into Ms Peel, who has oil changes 1000-2000 miles on essentially 20/50 Mobile One plus oil filter changes, opened after 7000 miles of pissing off sport bikes and then even widler solo use on and off road enjoy mid redline anytime I dared, had over rev event that bent crank and found same amount of cleaner looking sludge the bulk of was magnetic ferric nano dust cake. 2ND time into Trixe d/t rod bolt corrosion fracture, ater 7000 miles and a piston fracture at 1000 miles, had Rottella 15/40 oil and a fllter and rev up hard on cold wet sump starts and at least 100 miles of essentiall redline testing, was found about pristine... So amount of sludge mainly if not only depends on the quality of parts and assembly and conditons of operation not on the qaulity or freg of reasonable oil changes and Certainly NOT by use of oil filter unless maybe the 10 micron kind. There are so few crank failures from the internal stress riser its a non issue too BUT for crazy red line users - go good to Mr L. reminded me-us on it. The other thing I found is difficulty getting the crank fasteners to retain factory clamp force. I even broke a jaw off end wrench on Peel yet found some of them loose afterwards and similar on Trixie though both cranks held up w/o shifting parting from flywheel.
 
My `64 Atlas (w/ 25K miles) sludge trap was as clean as a hounds tooth.
Must have been using detergent oil back then and changing it frequently.
I've seen John Hudson (video) comment that there can be a little round block of black "cheese" in the cavity.
 
i semi analized the first sludge cake I found in my 1st Combat to fine its mostly 3/4 magnetic nano dust with ~1/4 non magnetic dust held together more by just pure surface area binding settling and some cooked in hydrocarbons giving it the dark brown to blackness the solvent mostly removes leaving the metalic component. Detergent helps suspend hydrocabons and to some degree matalic particles attached but I now think amount of sludge mostly depends on how fast the innards are turing to dust and takes rather unusual bad storage to foul up the crank center but we have seen at least two here last couple years, so like any cyclists swinging a leg over ya make ya best choises and takes ya chances. One could argue that crank spin sling is compacting layer more in crank than oil tank to build up but i found the tank layer essentially same stable cake that needed same scrap and rub physical removal with a solvent wash out. On the other hand one can not claim full Nortoneer mechanical maturity if not following the Brit Iron Motto for lessor breeds.. Always Clean the Sludge Trap.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top