RGM's Newman Cams

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Klaus Monning

Klaus Monning

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Hello,
At the end of this year I intend to take my NORTON 850 apart for the MAP Long rod conversion (sorry Jim I can't afford your parts). While I have it apart I will also exchange the camshaft. There is currently a "2S cam" fitted which I got second hand some years ago. Now it looks a bit worn and is in need for an exchange.

I have 3 Options:
1.) Get a new Newman cam that RGM sells on his website. Newman is a well known manufacturer and I trust that they are manufacturing good quality stuff. Are they?
2.) RGM offers stelliting and re- grind work for worn cams. So I could get one of my cores stellited and re- ground from him as well.
3.) Then we have Megacycle. They also offer a welding job with re- grinding. I would go for their 560-NSS (the NORRIS SS- grind).
Certainly I have newly ground flat cam followers which I will also fit.

I do have a few old cores which could be reworked by Megacycle or RGM. What do the speciallists think is the best option for wear resistence and power?
 
Where you want an increase in power depends on which part of the rev range and gearing you want to use. Race cams usually have a more well-defined power band, which is often at higher revs. However I think most of the hot cams for Commandos are not full race grind. The cam in my 850 motor is fairly standard, but with more lift.
 
Klaus Monning said:
Hello,
At the end of this year I intend to take my NORTON 850 apart for the MAP Long rod conversion (sorry Jim I can't afford your parts). While I have it apart I will also exchange the camshaft. There is currently a "2S cam" fitted which I got second hand some years ago. Now it looks a bit worn and is in need for an exchange.

I have 3 Options:
1.) Get a new Newman cam that RGM sells on his website. Newman is a well known manufacturer and I trust that they are manufacturing good quality stuff. Are they?
2.) RGM offers stelliting and re- grind work for worn cams. So I could get one of my cores stellited and re- ground from him as well.
3.) Then we have Megacycle. They also offer a welding job with re- grinding. I would go for their 560-NSS (the NORRIS SS- grind).
Certainly I have newly ground flat cam followers which I will also fit.

I do have a few old cores which could be reworked by Megacycle or RGM. What do the speciallists think is the best option for wear resistence and power?
Click to expand...
You are certainly welcome to buy any brand of rods you want. I've been told by some who bought them that the MAP long rods do not fit because the rod bolts do not allow the crank to turn in the cases. You have to machine the cases to clear the bolts. The MAP rods are made in China and sometimes they miss those details. The USA made Carrillo rods are more expensive.
 
jseng1 said:
You are certainly welcome to buy any brand of rods you want. I've been told by some who bought them that the MAP long rods do not fit because the rod bolts do not allow the crank to turn in the cases. You have to machine the cases to clear the bolts. The MAP rods are made in China and sometimes they miss those details. The USA made Carrillo rods are more expensive.
Click to expand...

The ISO 9000 definition of the term 'quality' is 'fit for purpose'. It does not mention ' with obvious attention to detail'. I suspect that omission was intentional. - Quality is all about attention to detail. One thing which worries me about Chinese motorcycle parts is their metallurgy. Making high quality steel is not easy. I was involved in making highly stressed items in Australia, most of our normal steel was not good enough. I think the Chinese use American mini-mills for steel production. Japanese steel is very clean but often low in alloying elements.
 
Last edited:
jseng1 said:
You are certainly welcome to buy any brand of rods you want. I've been told by some who bought them that the MAP long rods do not fit because the rod bolts do not allow the crank to turn in the cases. You have to machine the cases to clear the bolts. The MAP rods are made in China and sometimes they miss those details. The USA made Carrillo rods are more expensive.
Click to expand...

I encountered a similar issues, though not with MAP rods. The 3/8 ARP cap bolts fouled the case, I opted to chamfer the heads of the bolts after the rods had been torqued down rather than machine the cases, least worst decision IMHO. Just means I'll have to spring for new bolts next time the rods come out.
 
"sometimes they miss those details."
Don't go down that road. kind of like the Matrix scene under the Adams street bridge.

The USA made Carrillo rods are more expensive.
 
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Jus’ my personal opinion...

Carrillo rods are the best in the world.

There are lots of things you can save money on, or delay for later with a motorcycle rebuild. BUT if you’ve already decided to change for stronger, better steel rods, I really struggle to see the small cost saving from not buying the best as good economic sense.
 
If you want a trouble free cam buy the Megacycle. Whilst I've not had any problems with British made cams it seems a lot of people have. The Megacycle 51Bs I fitted to my 930 Triple were trouble free. The outer edges of the lobes were the cam blank material, whilst the centre portion was hard welded. They do this to stop the edges chipping.

Martyn.
 
jseng1 said:
You are certainly welcome to buy any brand of rods you want. I've been told by some who bought them that the MAP long rods do not fit because the rod bolts do not allow the crank to turn in the cases. You have to machine the cases to clear the bolts. The MAP rods are made in China and sometimes they miss those details. The USA made Carrillo rods are more expensive.
Click to expand...
Hi Klaus and Jim,
I have the MAP kits and recently received this email from MAP regarding crankcase interference:

Hello Ed,



Designed the first one well over 20 years ago. The only issue that I have knowledge of was on a MKIII. The rods hit on only one side. That tells me something else was wrong (.060” clearance on the other side)! Those cases were indeed a bit beefier than previous years and not many in comparison were actually sold. It could have been an odd ball. The customer made such a big internet stink about it that from then on (a few years back) all of our rods have been supplied with custom short head bolts (which you have).

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
Two years ago a US racer told me they didn't clear the cases and that the cases had to be machined. This year I heard the same from someone in the UK. I don't know which cases they had. Neither one was the customer who "made such a big internet stink". So customers have had to machine the cases to make them fit.

Ed says "Designed the first one well over 20 years ago." MAP was selling aluminum rods back then (not steel) approx 10 years ago. The Chinese steel MAP rod came out more recently.
 
Hello Together,
Thank you far all the anwers. Yes, I fully aware that the M.A.P rods are only second choice in comparison to Carillos.
Well, if you start a project like this you need to define the purpose.

I'm allready using M.A.P (aluminium-) rods as well as their light weight billet pistons in my bike and am very satisfied with their stuff as well as with their service. Certainly I had to modify my crankcase, especially because I have a billet machined Nourish crank with 91mm stroke fitted. That means: 1mm further up into the combustion chamber as well as 1mm further down into the crank case.

Anyway, coming back to the conrods: Before I retired 5 yeras ago, I was a sales engineer for doubleface grinding machines resposible for all inquiries concerning conrods and believe me in this job you see all the new conrod developments of all relevant automotive suppliers. And yes, the bushless rods are known to me as well. The Volkswagen/ Audi companiy allready gave us drawings of these conrods and, boy, were these light for their TFSI- motors. Just by the look at them they felt lighter than even Carrillo- rods. That's just an example now.

Many years ago I was at the automotive supplier exibition in Frankfurt- Main (Germany) and in the Chinese department I saw a exibitor who's conrods looked very much like the Carrilos. I allready suspected that M.A.P wouldn't be able to supply conrods for their price if they wouldn't have been made in China.

My intenion was a change to steel- rods because alluminium is simply not fatigue endurable and steel is. I just put this fact short. I also have no intension to go racing. I just want an optimally prepared engine for the road and this, along with some other modifications I carry out myself, lead me to the long- rod conversion. If I went racing certainly JS- parts would have been the way to go.
Best Regards
Klaus
 
Klaus Monning said:
Hello,
At the end of this year I intend to take my NORTON 850 apart for the MAP Long rod conversion (sorry Jim I can't afford your parts). While I have it apart I will also exchange the camshaft. There is currently a "2S cam" fitted which I got second hand some years ago. Now it looks a bit worn and is in need for an exchange.

I have 3 Options:
1.) Get a new Newman cam that RGM sells on his website. Newman is a well known manufacturer and I trust that they are manufacturing good quality stuff. Are they?
2.) RGM offers stelliting and re- grind work for worn cams. So I could get one of my cores stellited and re- ground from him as well.
3.) Then we have Megacycle. They also offer a welding job with re- grinding. I would go for their 560-NSS (the NORRIS SS- grind).
Certainly I have newly ground flat cam followers which I will also fit.

I do have a few old cores which could be reworked by Megacycle or RGM. What do the speciallists think is the best option for wear resistence and power?
Click to expand...
Klaus Monning said:
Hello,
At the end of this year I intend to take my NORTON 850 apart for the MAP Long rod conversion (sorry Jim I can't afford your parts). While I have it apart I will also exchange the camshaft. There is currently a "2S cam" fitted which I got second hand some years ago. Now it looks a bit worn and is in need for an exchange.

I have 3 Options:
1.) Get a new Newman cam that RGM sells on his website. Newman is a well known manufacturer and I trust that they are manufacturing good quality stuff. Are they?
2.) RGM offers stelliting and re- grind work for worn cams. So I could get one of my cores stellited and re- ground from him as well.
3.) Then we have Megacycle. They also offer a welding job with re- grinding. I would go for their 560-NSS (the NORRIS SS- grind).
Certainly I have newly ground flat cam followers which I will also fit.

I do have a few old cores which could be reworked by Megacycle or RGM. What do the speciallists think is the best option for wear resistence and power?
Click to expand...
Ian James here I had a stelite Cam from RGM I could see the join lines and feel them with fingernail didn't fit it
 
Klaus Monning said:
Hello Together,
Thank you far all the anwers. Yes, I fully aware that the M.A.P rods are only second choice in comparison to Carillos.
Well, if you start a project like this you need to define the purpose.

I'm allready using M.A.P (aluminium-) rods as well as their light weight billet pistons in my bike and am very satisfied with their stuff as well as with their service. Certainly I had to modify my crankcase, especially because I have a billet machined Nourish crank with 91mm stroke fitted. That means: 1mm further up into the combustion chamber as well as 1mm further down into the crank case.

Anyway, coming back to the conrods: Before I retired 5 yeras ago, I was a sales engineer for doubleface grinding machines resposible for all inquiries concerning conrods and believe me in this job you see all the new conrod developments of all relevant automotive suppliers. And yes, the bushless rods are known to me as well. The Volkswagen/ Audi companiy allready gave us drawings of these conrods and, boy, were these light for their TFSI- motors. Just by the look at them they felt lighter than even Carrillo- rods. That's just an example now.

Many years ago I was at the automotive supplier exibition in Frankfurt- Main (Germany) and in the Chinese department I saw a exibitor who's conrods looked very much like the Carrilos. I allready suspected that M.A.P wouldn't be able to supply conrods for their price if they wouldn't have been made in China.

My intenion was a change to steel- rods because alluminium is simply not fatigue endurable and steel is. I just put this fact short. I also have no intension to go racing. I just want an optimally prepared engine for the road and this, along with some other modifications I carry out myself, lead me to the long- rod conversion. If I went racing certainly JS- parts would have been the way to go.
Best Regards
Klaus
Click to expand...
Aluminium may have a fatigue life, eventually, but all depends on design and mileage / engine speed when used. There are plenty of Commandos with very high mileage on original rods.
 
You have to wonder how long the billet ally rods will last. I suspect for road use a very long time or rather longer than many of us
will last.
 
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