RE; Numbers not matching

I asked about a mis matched number bike I bought recently. The bike was advertised on Ebay and elsewhere as a numbers matching bike. I purchased the bike and had it shipped 300 miles by Uship. All went quite smooth. Until the bike arrived. Numbers on motor different than frame and trans. #221120 frame/trans, 221248 motor. I called seller the next day. He fast talked me by saying this sort of thing happens all the time and was probably a factory transplant because the numbers are so close. Ok ,I bit. The next day I asked the question here on this forum. Most of the responses I recieved had the same message: not a numbers matching bike??? where's the question! I did some research and it seems there is no way to document if the factory thing is possible. The fact remains, I didn't get what was advertised. I asked for $1000.00 refund. I felt this was a reasonable compensation for his "mistake". This was rejected as totally unreasonable and the subject closed. So I'm screwed. I will take some responsibility for this for not having insisted on photographic proof of matching numbers and will surely do so in the future. For anyone interested here is the name of the seller and his shop in Cologne, Mn. John "Doc" Jensen CAC Vintage Motorcycle Restoration . I will proceed with my restoration as all my bikes are riders and for my personal use. My kids can worry about selling them when I'm gone.

Why not take this up through the proper channels via eBay?

It is NOT you fault at all! Not asking for photographs would be a good 'get out' if you were complaining about condition, which of course, is subjective.

But you are talking about number, there is nothing subjective about this at all. The seller has absolutely, clearly, miss sold (by accident or not, it makes no difference).

Even if you decide to keep the bike, you should still report this properly to eBay.

Of all people, a vintage motorcycle restoration specialist would know the difference in value, so it was clearly misrepresented by someone who knows it, and he's clearly a liar..
As for the numbers being different from the Factory... I just hope the guy reads this forum :roll:
I'm with Eddie - log it with Ebay - nothing to lose!

How did you pay him?
Paypal, check, credit card?
Did you send a check in the mail via the post office?
Does your state register (title) the bike by engine or frame number and what does the documentation say?
If you did any part of the transaction via the post office, mail fraud is taken very seriously and is a federal offense.

Original thread is HERE
Step 1 is to file a complaint with credit card company
Step 2 is to file a complaint with ebay

If unsuccessful, you may file motor vehicle fraud charges, this might be costly, but the law has to be involved if you can't get your due recompense through "polite" channels.

On Britbike a guy bought 1965 T120R and a year after the purchase wanted to identify the non 65 parts, from his pics it sadly became pretty clear it was a 66 and 67 jumble masquerading as a 65. I helped him document from pics all the things that made the bike effectively a ringer and he used that with some online fraud organisation in the US and got a refund. Based on it being a year later I was surprised he got the refund but a crime is a crime as this T120R was not only mis described but frauduent.

It may have been this one that he used but cannot be sure.

https://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx

There's no way a restoration specialist can make an HONEST mistake about a bike having matching numbers or not... You should file a complaint with ebay, but of course that's up to you. If the bike seems like a good value for the price you paid, then maybe you did OK with your purchase anyway, but I think most of us would like to see you file a complaint just because of the seller's lieing behavior. Once the seller claims something like matching numbers, which is easy to check, and it turns out to be a lie, how can you trust that the bike he sold you is in the shape he claimed it to be ?? Unless you bought it as a total basket case, I would always suspect the seller threw it together with whatever he could find to get it to run well enough until your payment cleared and you had owned it long enough for him to say that YOU probably fuKKd up the good bike he sold you... Some people suck...

Like I said in the other thread, I bought a kickstart that was rethreaded to a coarse thread. When I contacted the seller after I recieved it, he adjusted the price to our mutual satisfaction.

Interesting. His excuse is that the numbers are only 128 apart. I really don't understand. I forgot to mention that he has offered to refund all of my purchase price minus shipping costs. So after returning the bike I'm out 600.00 for shipping.

So what's a person supposed to do when the crank grenades and destroys the crankcases?
And the only alternative is a used crankcase?
What then?

What to do? Spend money I suppose.....nice looking casting

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/16225

timarl54@yahoo.com said:

Interesting. His excuse is that the numbers are only 128 apart. I really don't understand. I forgot to mention that he has offered to refund all of my purchase price minus shipping costs. So after returning the bike I'm out 600.00 for shipping.

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Still defrauding you of $600. NO WAY I would accept.

mschmitz57 said:

So what's a person supposed to do when the crank grenades and destroys the crankcases?
And the only alternative is a used crankcase?
What then?

Click to expand...

Don't sell it as a numbers-matching bike!

Yes, this sort of thing happens all the time, which is why a numbers-matching machine is worth more.

What a disappointment when a deal goes like this. I'd have Ebay on his case pronto. Hes a fraud

There have been numerous posts on this forum about how the number should match. In a perfect world that would be true. But the world of Norton is not perfect. In 1972 I purchased a brand new off of the showroom purple Norton Combat from Pokes Cycle in Seattle. Guess what? The numbers didn't match. I pointed this out to Poke and we looked through his inventory and one of the Interstates had mismatched numbers as well. Poke said that if was that important to me that blank frame tags were available and that he would change it out. I was 19 at the time and didn't see the importance. I believe that frame tags are still available as are number-letter punch kits. Guess this is why many state use engine numbers for registration purposes.

Yeah, That's what I was thinking but the title probably has the frame VIN numbers on it.

Just as an interesting aside. On my VIN list that I have been compiling for many years now, I have an entry from an eBay UK listing in March 2015 for bare engine cases VIN # 221120 (the original cases from the bike you bought). The seller was a shop in Horsens, Denmark.

Regards, Tom

mschmitz57 said:

Yeah, That's what I was thinking but the title probably has the frame VIN numbers on it.

Click to expand...

I bought a used 73 850 a number of years ago from a friend in California. It didn't have a frame tag on it and the title had the engine number. He said that the tag was missing when he bought it from an Oregon owner. The CA DOL used engine numbers at that time as did Oregon. Washington uses frame numbers. I had to get a frame tag and self punch the engine numbers on it before I had it inspected. It sailed through with no issues.

Snortn750 said:

Just as an interesting aside. On my VIN list that I have been compiling for many years now, I have an entry from an eBay UK listing in March 2015 for bare engine cases VIN # 221120 (the original cases from the bike you bought). The seller was a shop in Horsens, Denmark.

Regards, Tom

Click to expand...

What an awesome coincidence that you are here to report that. Gotta love this forum.

eskasteve said:

There have been numerous posts on this forum about how the number should match. In a perfect world that would be true. But the world of Norton is not perfect.

Click to expand...

The biggest "imperfection" in this thread is the original seller's claim that it WAS a "numbers matching" bike, when clearly it is NOT.

You still have options. This first is going through arbitration with EBAY. They arbitrate 600,000 case every year and they do not take false representation lightly. I have arbitrated several items with great results. This seller could be barred for life for bad business practices. They usually will make amends.

The other option depends on how you paid the bill. If you used PayPal, they can stop payment based on false representation. Even a check cashed by the sellers bank can have a stop payment. I have stopped payment through my bank on checks that were cashed by the seller. Its amazing how fast they want to talk when they no longer have the payment in their account.