Please explain the wet sump issue

Nater_Potater · Feb 27, 2014

MikeM said:
So as a Norton newbie, why not a manual valve in the oil tank return line to hold the oil in the tank? Close it when parking the bike and open it before starting.
Seems simple. Am I way off base here? My new engine comes home in few weeks. I dont want to trash it right out of the box.
MikeM

As some have eluded to, the fear with a manual valve is the very real chance of starting your bike with the oil shut off. By the time you hear the rods clatter, you're past the point of no return! Thus, all the effort to incorporate ignition interlocks and the like.
I'm of the same mind as Hobot (at least, as far as the wet-sumping issue is concerned); I don't lose any sleep over it. Hobot also makes a great observation; perform every start as if it's a cam break-in run. It's the cam that suffers the most from oil starve and/or low rpms. Keep in mind that the only thing keeping the lobes and followers from going away is the thin oil wedge, and that requires a certain amount of surface speed to accomplish. Don't forget that the cam is only running at half the speed of the crank. Keep the rpm's up to develop pressure as quickly as possible.
If the sump is full of oil, the crank's going to throw oil all over the cam anyway.
My Triumph wet-sumps; my BSA wet-sumps, 'never had any oil-based issues.

JimC · Feb 28, 2014

MikeM said:
So as a Norton newbie, why not a manual valve in the oil tank return line to hold the oil in the tank? Close it when parking the bike and open it before starting.
Seems simple. Am I way off base here? My new engine comes home in few weeks. I dont want to trash it right out of the box.
MikeM

What good would a shut-off valve in the return line do? The valve would need to be in the feed line to stop wet-sumping.

My advice; forget about any manual valve and gyro gear-loose componentry. Send the pump and timing case to AMR for modification. You will then have a spring loaded check valve in the pump OUTPUT.

Johnnymac · Feb 28, 2014

Mine wet sumped so badly that I could barely kick it over with the Combat compression and this cold. I would lose almost my entire oil tank in a mater of days.

I sent my pump and timing cover to get the AMR mod for $70 and it doesn't wetsump a drop now.

rvich · Feb 28, 2014

I have a manual valve on my line. I went to a local bike rally and was publicly attacked by a guy riding a really beautiful Laverda when he saw that valve. He just couldn't get over it and made a lot of noise about it. It was kind of amazing, I thought I might get stoned before I escaped. So, it is one of those things I don't bring up here very often either.

However, I also live where it gets cold and my motorcycle "garage" is unheated. So I have a 25 watt heater on my oil tank. I plug the bike in and shut off the oil. Yeah, sure someday I am going to ride off with the bike plugged in and the oil shut off. I have heard the stories. If you live someplace like I do where the bike gets put up for the winter and stays there for months you have two choices (IMO), put in a valve and turn it off during the long wait or drain the oil out of the sump in the spring. It could be argued I suppose that it does more good in the sump than it does in the tank when the bike is sitting idle. You decide!

Russ

pete.v · Feb 28, 2014

MikeM said:
So as a Norton newbie, why not a manual valve in the oil tank return line to hold the in the tank? Close it when parking the bike and open it before starting.
Seems simple. Am I way off base here? My new engine comes home in few weeks. I dont want to trash it right out of the box.
MikeM

hi Mike, just to be clear not everyone suffers from this affliction and the effects can vary greatly from one bike to another.

I have had a ball valve on the feed Iine for years now. many things can be done to help neglectful Minds. many have put a switch to it so they cannot start the bike with it closed. You can flag it so the kickstart gets in the way when it's closed. For me it's a matter of habit and sequence. ignition on, gas on, oil on, Tickle/Choke/Enrichen ( for whatever type carburetor you may have), then kick it over.

yes, there is a serious risk, but first you must determine if you have a problem at all. this will take some time and experimenting after your bike is together.

I have a MKIII timing cover with the spring and plunger built in. It helps but nut perfect. The port for seeing the timing chain is good though.

Bernhard · Feb 28, 2014

Nater_Potater said:
MikeM said:

So as a Norton newbie, why not a manual valve in the oil tank return line to hold the oil in the tank? Close it when parking the bike and open it before starting.
My Triumph wet-sumps; my BSA wet-sumps, 'never had any oil-based issues.

Click to expand...

350/500 Velo singles fitted with the ball vale to the oil tank, don’t as a rule wet sump :!: :shock:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Vel ... ORM=IQFRBA

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Vel ... edIndex=16

jeffmack · Feb 28, 2014

It's just too damn easy to drain and put oil back in oil tank after a long sit. If my bike hasn't run in over a week I always drain, 5 minutes and off I go.

worntorn · Feb 28, 2014

Here is what I don't like about wet sumping

1. Having to drain sump and refill just to go for a quick ride after leaving the bike sit for a few weeks is too much bother.
2. Once the sump gets over full on some bikes, they start to leak oil all over the place and the bike gets very grimy.
3. It might be good for the can, but if the bike is puking blue smoke on startup, you are coking the crap out of head, valves,rings etc. I would guess one good blue smoke startup gets more ugly crud on the top end than many thousands of miles of clean running.
4. Not a great idea to start the bike with no oil in tank and everything in the sump, no oil to the pump could airlock it for awhile.

The makers did not expect the sumps to fill up with oil, they were designed to be dry sumpers. Norton must have seen the sump filling as a problem, because they fitted a semi useful antisiphon valve to the MK3.

So if there is a way to prevent oil from over filling the sump without any risk to the engine, ie semi-useful AMR mod, or a really foolproof manual shutoff, I'm all for it.
You can always let a little extra 'cam' oil into the sump by leaving the valve open for a week or two before shutoff.

The problem is enhanced by the "Too many bikes not enough riding" syndrome that many of us, self included, have.

Glen

frankdamp · Feb 28, 2014

The 650SS works bike that I rode to commute to N-V would wet-sump just parked at home over a weekend. Based on advice from our mechanics, I just used to start it and run about 1200 rpm for a couple of minutes before i set off for work. That was a pretty tired engine, having 135,000 miles on the odometer.

Hobot · Feb 28, 2014

Hehe Frank, its hard to get past the emotional logic applied to wet sump start ups and some never do. One must ignore about a century of world wide wet sump starts of British cycles w/o any down side. Wonder how all the lawn mowers get smokeless no issue cold starts and running with sump oil churned by crank. Some engines even have a spoon like extension to splash oil on bores and cam. Similar to extra effective one way crank case vent valves, not a bad ID - if your rings/bore condition makes a mess w/o it. I can tell state of rings vs guides by when smoke shows up, if immediately its implies rings can't handle sealing till heat swollen, if 20-30 sec later, when oil pressure hits head, implies intake guides. To state that initial cam splash oil is a non-issue is to call the original Norton twin engine designers ignorant emotional fools to provide a cam oil bath and Ludwig's cam oil bath restoration a useless joke on his extra efforts. Proper heat plugs with good rings and guides should not foul or chamber coke up on a bit of start up wet sump smoke. No accounting for emotional reactions like we tease about women's chemistry, so do what makes ya feel comfortable to discounting the number of reports of lack of oil device events, a ways down the road vs catastrophe of rare crank seal failure.

worntorn · Feb 28, 2014

hobot said:
Hehe Frank, its hard to get past the emotional logic applied to wet sump start ups and some never do. One must ignore about a century of world wide wet sump starts of British cycles w/o any down side. Wonder how all the lawn mowers get smokeless no issue cold starts and running with sump oil churned by crank. Some engines even have a spoon like extension to splash oil on bores and cam. Similar to extra effective one way crank case vent valves, not a bad ID - if your rings/bore condition makes a mess w/o it. I can tell state of rings vs guides by when smoke shows up, if immediately its implies rings can't handle sealing till heat swollen, if 20-30 sec later, when oil pressure hits head, implies intake guides. To state that initial cam splash oil is a non-issue is to call the original Norton twin engine designers ignorant emotional fools to provide a cam oil bath and Ludwig's cam oil bath restoration a useless joke on his extra efforts. Proper heat plugs with good rings and guides should not foul or chamber coke up on a bit of start up wet sump smoke. No accounting for emotional reactions like we tease about women's chemistry, so do what makes ya feel comfortable to discounting the number of reports of lack of oil device events, a ways down the road vs catastrophe of rare crank seal failure.

Naawww! :mrgreen:

MikeM · Feb 28, 2014

JimC said:
MikeM said:

So as a Norton newbie, why not a manual valve in the oil tank return line to hold the oil in the tank? Close it when parking the bike and open it before starting.
Seems simple. Am I way off base here? My new engine comes home in few weeks. I dont want to trash it right out of the box.
MikeM

Click to expand...

What good would a shut-off valve in the return line do? The valve would need to be in the feed line to stop wet-sumping.

My advice; forget about any manual valve and gyro gear-loose componentry. Send the pump and timing case to AMR for modification. You will then have a spring loaded check valve in the pump OUTPUT.

So shoot me. Return or feed, whichever would be the correct side. Why would a shut off valve to hold oil in the tank wouldnt work. Just remember to turn it on like the fuel valve.

Hobot · Feb 28, 2014

A valve on the output side of pump would be essentially fail safe for dry cam/lifter kick offs, while relying on memory reminds me of what my Swami Nitty Gritty told us, "The dullest pencil is sharper than the best memory." We don't really need keys any more so makes a lot of sense to me to put the on/off electric and oil in one fail safe valve/switch. Imagine that some non Norton vendors even market a pre oiler of all things, sheeze what will they think of next?

worntorn · Feb 28, 2014

MikeM said:
JimC said:

MikeM said:

. Why would a shut off valve to hold oil in the tank wouldnt work. Just remember to turn it on like the fuel valve.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It does work, those were the various manual valves I mentioned in the second post, also discussed by others.
But with the valve on it's own without a switch or some other failsafe designed in, it is quite likely that eventually you will forget to turn the valve on before starting and destroy the engine.
Have you ever ridden away without having remembered to turn the fuel back on? I have done this many times. Perhaps my brain is also full of aluminium.

With the manual oil supply valve you would not want to forget even once.

Glen

kerinorton · Mar 3, 2014

I ENEDED UP PUTTING A BALL VALVE ON THE SUPPLY LINE on my 850 because of this issue. The oil used to seep through the main seal into the primary, till it pissed out onto the chain one day. I now don't have to muck around draining the engine and the primary. I turn the ball valve on before turning the fuel on. I sometimes turn the ball valve on when ever I think I might go for a ride, sometimes hours ahead of time. I am a mechanic, and understand the amount of effort that goes into fixing problems, so I will never forget to turn that ball valve on. I am also not going to got to the trouble of replacing that main seal, when it works fine with the engine running.

bill · Mar 3, 2014

famous last words

kerinorton said:
so I will never forget to turn that ball valve on.

Please explain the wet sump issue

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