Pilot jet for water

mike996 · Sep 27, 2013

"If you really want a free power boost in your engine, and I am not kidding, put a couple of very small plastic funnels on the front of your bike and connect them to a small bore hose like those from car heaters and put them close to the intakes. You WILL get an extra kick at around 60 mp"

Don't those funnels come in the box with the 100 MPG carburetor that the was kept off the market by the feds?

xbacksideslider · Sep 27, 2013

texasSlick said:
In reading these threads, it seems much is made of the latent heat of vaporization of water, as if it is some magic energy source that can propell you down the road faster. All liquids possess a latent heat of vaporization....by definition it is the amount of heat necessary to change a pound of the substance from the liquid to the vapor state. For water this value is approx 1000 BTU's per pound of water.

If one pound of water is exposed to a dry air mass, and if that water entirely evaporates, then 1000 BTU's will be taken up by the water. The 1000 BTU's comes from the air mass, and conservation of energy requires that the air mass temperature drop to reflect this loss of heat. This is the principle of evaporative cooling. When the air mass reaches 100% relative humidity, no more water can evaporate, and no more cooling of the air mass occurs.

Water does not burn, I.e. liberate energy by combining with oxygen....it may dissociate at the high temperatures in a combustion chamber to H and O, but dissociation takes energy from the combustion, not imparting energy to it. If re-combination of the H and O occurs, the hydrogen burns, giving back the energy dissociation robbed from the process.

a mixture of methanol and water provides both cooling and a source of combustion energy, but due attention must be given to maintaining the stoichiometric ratio ( we have been through this before on this forum). The admixture of a combustible substance to an otherwise stoichiometric air/fuel mixture necessarily richens the ratio.

Well stated.

Hobot · Sep 27, 2013

Water vapor and its latent heat by far rule the roost in global climate and taming detonation but its does more than just evaporate in combustion chamber. Expanding scope of understanding doesn't have to be unpleasant but can hurt prior concepts. There are *significant* chemical aspects of water that only happen after evaporated. Richardo found that once an engine max out power on some octane by enrichment only, he could add up to 50% water for fuel to keep increasing power.
I'm having fun investigating and will see if can make it work or not w/o having to find hi octane in Dog Patch Dixieland.
17:1 CR at full spark pressure requires ~112+ octane but enough water can reach 116 octane equivalent w/o putting out the fire.

During early combustion when the fastest reactions occur the effect of the water in the mixture is to cause a more controlled and stable flame front. The freeing of hydrogen and carbon to combine with oxygen has to work around the present water to form OH radicals and CO. By slowing this early combustion process there is further suppression of the potential for the mixture to burn too fast and contribute to knock.

Later in the combustion process slower and more complex reactions occur. The formation of OH radicals is very fast and interferes with the completion of the combustion process to form CO2 from the first step creation of CO. It is during this phase of combustion where present water helps to complete the slower reaction to complete the formation of CO2 since water is about the only way to complete the oxidation of CO. The additional present water actually speeds this reaction which also happens to be when as much of two thirds of the energy from carbon combustion is released.

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=811

The mechanism of hydration of alkene involves the attack of hydrogen ion to the pi bond. The second carbon of the original double-bonded carbons becomes a carbocation. An acid-base reaction occurs between the water molecule and the carbocation, forming an oxonium ion. The oxonium ion stabilizes by losing a hydrogen ion. This results in the formation of an alcohol.

http://www.mayfco.com/injchem.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=z_gOKd ... ion&f=true

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

X-file · Sep 27, 2013

Bernhard said:
Water & iron bores in engine = rust :!: :!:

If you burn a pound of fuel,you'll produce a pound of water as an exhaust by-product.You're already dealing with water,if you like it or not.

Hobot · Sep 28, 2013

Hehe xfiles i think he was just baiting us. It was once said by smug scientists heavier than air flight will never be practical. Some like Matt may enjoy this war water article.

Frank Walker - “What can I do about this problem?”
By Kimble D. McCutcheon
A lone Republic P-47 “Thunderbolt”, affectionately known as the “Jug” because of its
rotund shape, was cruising in the bright sky of Germany. In one of the numerous
skirmishes of the day, the Jug had become separated from its group. Now its pilot
was headed home, low on ammunition and not exactly brimming with fuel. He had
pulled the big Pratt & Whitney R-2800 back to less than half power and it was now
sipping fuel at a rate of only 65 gallons per hour. To avoid any further enemy
contact, he was flying at about 15,000 feet, in and out of the top of a broken overcast
that hid him from the view of enemy fighters most of the time.
The P-47 “Thunderbolt”
Encountering one of the clear spots, the Jug pilot rapidly scanned above him and
was shocked to see a couple of German Focke-Wulf Fw 190 fighters a few thousand
feet above him and ahead by about a mile. “No threat”, he thought. Looking around
still more, he now saw the object of the Fw 190’s interest – a lone B-17, trailing
smoke from its number two engine, and heading for the cover of the same overcast
the Jug pilot was using.
It was evident to the Jug pilot that the B-17 could not make the other side of the
clear area before the Fw 190s caught up. Knowing he had no time to spare, the Jug
pilot flipped a switch on the top of his throttle and simultaneously pushed the
propeller ,throttle and supercharger controls forward to the stops. Moving the stop
aside on the throttle control, he continued to push the throttle and supercharger
controls to the War Emergency Power setting. The mighty R-2800 sprang to life,
delivering over 2300 hp. The Jug pilot felt the exhilaration of the rapid acceleration...

rest of the story...
http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf

IF bored here's what I'm trying to grock on Peel Hi CR low octane mild boost creek water and moonhshine feeding
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/sho ... .php?t=436

B+Bogus · Sep 28, 2013

Interesting thread!

I read about a P-47 pilot who reported that the excellent dive-speed of the Thunderbolt was just as well 'because it sure as hell can't climb!'
I'm guessing that's why they pursued the development of water injection. They also used aromatic fuels - I seem to remember 150 octane being mentioned.
I think there's something a bit bass-ackwards though - The Germans had successfully developed methanol-water mix (MW50), possibly to augment their GM-1 Nitrous Oxide injection, so Walker was possibly doing parallel research?
Whatever - the objective appears to prevent detonation whilst generating more power via whatever means (increased boost, hotter fuels), but something I didn't realise was the alcohol was used to prevent the water freezing - I'd always assumed it was solely for power augmentation coupled with cooler running.

Just need to hook it all up to the Combat now :mrgreen:

Bernhard · Sep 28, 2013

X-file said:
Bernhard said:

Water & iron bores in engine = rust :!: :!:

Click to expand...

If you burn a pound of fuel,you'll produce a pound of water as an exhaust by-product.You're already dealing with water,if you like it or not.

You make the point exactly; there is already enough H2o in the atmosphere that the engine is breathing in, thankyou very much.
The extra air, I made for the engine when blown into the inlet does give you a free power boost at 60 m.p.h. –You are quite simply giving the engine extra oxygen; it works on both diesels and petrol engines that does not have a supercharger or turbo-don't ask me how I know.
So all you people out there, why not try it :!: :idea:

Hobot · Sep 28, 2013

Bernhard could ya detail a bit more on your ram air discovery to try. ITs newsworthy remarkable development to get detectable affect in legal-ish speeds.

Anti-detonation fluids are waste of time UNtill operating in zone that'd blow up other wise and then must be forced in not just sucked in. BTW its not the combustion products/gases that push on piston as much as the heating of Nitrogen inside to expand. H2 + O2 ignited in a tank causes an instant vacuum as the gases turn to a tiny drop of water spread out as vapor in a large volume.

As a kid in a light boat not much more than a bent up sheet of plywood and the 20 hp carb facing forward one day I put my hand at an angle in front of carb and found a position that suddenly made engine over rev and boat speed up about 10 mph which is insane extra free power over the load. Enough extra rpm and speed the thing would rise out the water and ride on prop half out the water and boat on air cushion. I found I could reproduce this by taping a single playing card where I put hand > So boat went from mid 30 mph to mid 40's and I could contest with more powerful but heavier boats in canals and rock pits which pissed them off plus I could turn sharper - till wind and wave caused hi sides that threw me out the boat or rip engine off mount. This happened once while 'racing' along side free way traffic in canal but lucked out when engine got cockeyed and ran us straight into canal wall there was a boat wide slope for drainage there so boat just ran out of the water and stopped while me and friend tumbled out onto the grass, similar to air boat leaving the water.

Bernhard · Sep 30, 2013

Hobot, this is really old news, as this has been done, amongst others, on single seater racing cars from, I think, the 1980s or earlier, what do you think the big hole/scoop above the driver’s crash helmet is on these cars are for :?:
Even the Japs cottoned onto it on some of their more sporty big bikes, ever seen those Jap bikes with Flexible Hover hoses on top of the dummy petrol tank :?:

I use a simple small size plastic funnel less than 4 inch diameter, that is drilled with small holes to wire it onto the frame at the front of the bike underneath the tank or at one side of the frame. it can be mounted anywhere that is convenient.
black Car heater rubber hose is best thing to use, (water hose pipe will kink and block the air supply) run this back to the carb bell mouth or air box and wire it on the bottom of the intake if open carb.
result- free supercharging- of sorts :!:

Hobot · Sep 30, 2013

Ok bernhard we all know fast craft has scoops to help cool air in with least resistance to flow- just usually it takes way over go to jail speed before they actually ram air to detect that effect, rather than just cold denser air feed. All the references i ever found say until Mach 0.3 reached a scoop is more likely to cause more drag than any power gained. If ya could get ram air to be noticed the effect would be about useless in real life - like trying to pass a car or especially a semi- the turbulence would distrupt the ram effect just when needed most. Mist some water in front of intake may help more than ram air until about 200 mph. Of course too much water mist displaces oxygen and fuel so can easy over do it that way and loose power while cleaning engine, which is not the way water or ADF are done effectively. Had this happen to Trixie at a power wash I soaked the paper filter too much and could hardly give it any throttle till a few miles outside of town on hwy, would die if giving normal throttle so had to restart a few times hoping it was just water logged which it was.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html
https://www.google.com/#psj=1&q=ram+air ... calculator

A funny thing happened on the way to improve mileage by the HHO guys, ie: those electrolyzing water into H and O to feed into engine but w/o much help, so they thought if they dried the gases of any water vapor carried over they'd get the hoped for results. End result was when they did get dry gases they lost all mileage benefit.

Then there are those GEET guys who claim they can heat and treat water to become a fuel and run completely on water and have demo's of this, but then killed off or jailed by their success so I'm not going to try that method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSiShiu9Sgs

MikeG · Sep 30, 2013

B+Bogus said:
Interesting thread!

Whatever - the objective appears to prevent detonation whilst generating more power via whatever means
quote]

#1 Taming detonation was first on the list.

Bernhard · Oct 1, 2013

To Hobot, can I ask where are you planning to do 200m.p.h. :?:

I guess from your comments that you will not be planning to even try fitting a couple of small scoops to any Norton twin. I will fit o some to mine when it is on the road. Then why does the engine get an extra urge to accelerate better as soon as it reaches 60mph. this method also improves the roll off / roll on throttle response at that speed-it’s not very often that you can get something for nothing :!:

Hobot · Oct 1, 2013

hehe Bernhard I don't think Peel can hit 200 mph though might be able on airport pavement with special fuels and some streamlining but then the tires available in her sizes would explode.

I am intrigued that you got pleasant detectable help with scopes at sane easy to reach speeds. That is why I asked you how you set yours up, as I do believe you and take you at your word so want a taste of it on my normal plain Jane Trixie Combat, that I really can't use/want a whole lot extra power as becomes so dam dangerous so suddenly on un-tamed isolastics. I am confused by my own experience and world wide efforts of failure to get detectable ram air help. I have seen all the air flows and turbulence patterns of a ridden Cdo at 70 mph - a surreal event I flash back on time to time like now. The air flow hits engine and splits to slap the heated air a few inches behind engine - so my scientific sense says you are getting more cold air help rather than higher air density or pressure feeding. I do not know, just educated guessing that is quite open to be corrected. I'd make my scoops as a double plate between carbs that each side bends around outward to help grab the splash of air into intakes.

Might try a water dripper into the funnel to see if even more detectable help of cooler denser combustion helping moisture.
Could also be that the extra air helps lean a slightly over rich state of tune?

Bernhard · Oct 2, 2013

Hobot, I suggest you do one and only one tuning mod at a time.
The slight extra kick you will get from fitting 2 air scoops, (one for each carb) will mildly surprise you.
Do let us know how you get on.

xbacksideslider · Oct 2, 2013

" . . . black Car heater rubber hose is best thing to use, (water hose pipe will kink and block the air supply) run this back to the carb bell mouth or air box and wire it on the bottom of the intake if open carb.
result- free supercharging- of sorts"

Bernhard - is your set up to a closed air box that is pressurized by the heater hose? I mean that's the system on the late model sportbikes and road racers where the pipe(s) from the high pressure area at the front of the bike are the sole source of air to the airbox.

Hobot · Oct 2, 2013

In plain Jane Trixie's case I know she's just for caring puttering about with some careful glee times so more power would be counterproductive wear and danger wise Plus any unfiltered air is absolute Taboo around here. There's all kinds of plastic funnel ducts in old cars and other things that would be easier to mount and keep from sticking out like some hillbilly device. I have given some thought to and under bike scoop directed up between engine and tranny but remembered my water crossings and over limbs in path or across over grown pasture grass from my shed, so scratched that too in my case.

Now what might be cleaning and boosting mileage would be a water dripper onto the air filter to add some moisture and slight density and charge cooling on leaner tuning. That way a throttle up would draw in more air though filter and maybe carry enough water with it to actually matter some.

Hobot · Oct 3, 2013

This water stuff is fascinating as magnets and gyro's. I've observed on purpose for some decades now to note I definitely get more spunk from engines in more humid air like summer fog than just more cold air such as 20'F dry snow on the ground, so wetting the filter should be tried by someone with maybe some ram air assist. But what's a bit of fuel combustion help compared to running on water fuel alone. I really don't know what to make of this GEET but its been around a long time now with many followers and variations. Sheeze a Norton Commando is such a lawnmower simple machine might stave off boredom
by improving on its simplicity. Oh yeah Coffee may be the best health beverage ever and hydrates ya even though also acts as diuretic, which this GEET should run on too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FblcOKur8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY8Edb88im4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqeqmy14ps

Bernhard · Oct 3, 2013

All that glitters……………………..
http://tophhogascar.com/

Google ;
Top HHO Gas Car Research

Hobot · Oct 3, 2013

Ok Bernhard thanks for the pointer at some claimed tested HHO kits but its been found that if the moisture content carried with the H2 O2 gases is eliminated so is all the gains, so HHO ain't really vapor fuel so much as a type of water injection. GEET is whole another level of water only as fuel which is offensive to my chemical-physics education but I'm smart enough to withhold firm judgement till I know for sure one way or another. Hey please try some water dripper into your funnel scoop to see if it does anything beyond de-carbonizing the chambers. On Peel water system I'll open valve until power loss then close down till it don't. If figure with RBRacing online calc and conversation ~15% of fuel mass should do it for 17CR.

Bernhard · Oct 4, 2013

I may try the “oil can method” using a windscreen wash splitter to get 2 pipes from one.
While traveling along I can squirt some water into the carbs, but I am not expecting any Miracle :!:

Pilot jet for water

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