Pilot jet for water

Met an airhead owner who had a water bottle on his gastank , 2 aquarium lines leading to the intake manifolds where he had installed Mikuni pilot jets for suction induced water vapour augmentation for the mix. Any thoughts how this might be applied to Commandos ?

for what purpose exactly? Reduction in power? Cleaning carbon from chamber?

Water has the highest latent heat of vaporisation of any normally liquid chemical. Pity it does not burn.

Well he claimed the benefits were a long lasting motor and no carbon deposits. He pointed at the odometer at 940,000 miles. He was towing a trailer for camping across Canada. Thunder Bay. He looked like Santa Claus in Summertime. But I do know atomized water loosens up carbon. That's all I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

In my turbo car, I inject 50/50 methanol/water to control detonation, and to be able to run pump gas at high boost.
Works very well. As for naturally aspirated . . . . .

acotrel said:

Water has the highest latent heat of vaporisation of any normally liquid chemical. Pity it does not burn.

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It does expand X 1700 when flashed into steam.

Ever head of a steam locomotive? In this case, the steam is generated "internally" rather than in a boiler.

Torontonian said:

Well he claimed the benefits were a long lasting motor and no carbon deposits. He pointed at the odometer at 940,000 miles. He was towing a trailer for camping across Canada. Thunder Bay. He looked like Santa Claus in Summertime. But I do know atomized water loosens up carbon. That's all I know.

Click to expand...

Airhead speedos go back to 0 after 99,000 miles...

this one I know as adated similar to a number of cars, so can state that a vacuum sucked in water spray Is Only Good for some mileage increase and turning carbon to grey dust to blow out, But will not help avoid detonation nor make more power than what octane in tank w/o water, The issue being that the times water can help in on increasing hi throttle which lowers the vacuum to about nil so nil water sucked in. To make power with water injection requires forcing it in *and* operating in danger zone of detonation w/o it, otherwise a waste of time. Same applies to Singh Groove anti-detonation help, there is not until engine lugged in high gear low rpm or up CR , lower octane or add boost. For vacuum system just a small hole in a tube will work and less hassle than a fitting to hold a pilot jet. Can search up real water injection spray nozzles but all require some pressure to spray rather than dribble. To decoke use pump up plant sprayer into carb while blipping, if too much it dies just restart and rev higher on use a tad less water, no danger of hydro lock unless ya put a garden hose on full blast.

Water cools the aspirated fuel-air charge and results in a higher density of fuel-air mixture, giving a higher energy content in the cylinder....resulting in more power. I played around with this in the 60's with my hot rod Ford.....the boost in power was not worth the added complexity.

I do not know of any other benefit to water injection/ aspiration.

Yes ChasBMW , most likely one too many zeros , I need glasses now you know. Did not know a slight bit of vapour created a tad more power though.

Water is a mysterious substance with differing character in differing conditions and whether in solid liquid gas or plasma phase state. There is very little benefit of water intake that is not forced into an engine or that is not already in detonation state that enriching fuel mix does not help make power but instead stifles the fire=power down, similar to backing off spark timing so less combusted by TDC and less pressure there after too. This is where various anti-detonation fluids come into the power making part. To say water injection does not make power is like saying heavier than air flight is impractical, especially to the loaded to the gills WWII pilots on take off power or Combat power with superchargers feeding combustion for the turbo's to feed even more in the rare air up there. Take for instance Jim's injected Cdo pinging in some conditions, if some water spritzed in then he could stay in that gear and even increase throttle. Of course most the water should go in after fuel and air mixed on the water displaces too much of those vitals.

Very crude basics and not nearly the whole story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

Steam Saab 14% better mpg via steam Injection it just cleaner mileage goal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAkRLjx8FeU

hobot said:

Water is a mysterious substance with differing character in differing conditions and whether in solid liquid gas or plasma phase state.

Click to expand...

As far as I know, water is the only substance that expand when heated as well as cooled. Water is densest @ 39°F.

Cool it below 39°F & expands. Heat it above above 39°F & it expands.

In the extremes, ice expands as it gets colder, steam expands as it gets hotter resulting in higher pressure.

The hydro lock problem arises when the reservoir level is above the point of intake. Gravity feed is not a good idea. A syphon is started by engine vacuum. Turn the engine off and the darn thing keeps syphoning water into the intake. If the reservoir level is lower than the point of intake, then intake vacuum ought to be able to pull water into the intake tract but it can't syphon thereafter. If you're going to build such a system it ought to have a check valve for anti hydro lock safety, a pump and jets all controlled by an adjustable "Hobbes" pressure/vacuum switch to a relay for the pump. For naturally aspirated, as said, OK idea to control detonation if super high CR, that's where the "Hobbes switch" comes it, to turn the water on only at the intake pressure associated with detonation. Better still run your relay off of a knock sensor.

As stated, water cannot be sucked into the engine at high throttle settings because there will be insufficient vacuum. So attaching some sort of device to a manifold vac port to do it is a waste of time/money. Years ago there were companies who sold such devices for cars that "guaranteed" to increase power and mileage. Of course, they did neither. If you want water INJECTION then you need a device that will inject it.

mike996 said:

As stated, water cannot be sucked into the engine at high throttle settings because there will be insufficient vacuum. So attaching some sort of device to a manifold vac port to do it is a waste of time/money. Years ago there were companies who sold such devices for cars that "guaranteed" to increase power and mileage. Of course, they did neither. If you want water INJECTION then you need a device that will inject it.

Click to expand...

+1 on this post. When I tried water injection on my 57 Ford, I used a small pressure tank which I fitted with a Schrader valve, and used compressed air (that could be obtained free at any filling station in those days) to pressurize the tank to 50 psi. A solenoid valve, actuated by a dash mounted switch , let water to an air box mounted over the three deuces , where an atomizer jet misted the incoming air. The 290 degree cam bogged down the engine coming out of the hole, and if I turned on the water spray, it would be worse. Once the revs got to about 3000, I could hit the switch and there was a small surge that could be felt in the seat of the pants. Then I got my Atlas, and forgot about stop-light gran prix racing with four wheelers.

As Hobot pointed out, WW2 fighters used water injection for added takeoff boost, and to get out of a jam. Water injection was more effective since they were supercharged which heats the air, and the water cooled it, thereby further increasing the charge density. The added power boost may have been in part due to decreasing the power required by the supercharger itself....just like inter-cooling multi stage compressors reduces power consumption.

I don't think it is worth the trouble, but if I were to try gaining a hp or two by water, I would soak the media of the air filter, making it an evaporative cooler. This would not displace any fuel/air charge as only humid air would exit the media, providing one had the proper type media, and did not flood it excessively.

Theoretically

The main feature of water is its high latent heat factor, that is it absorbs a good bit of heat to evaporate. Main thing of spraying water ahead of the impeller is the cooling makes air denser so blower or compressor more efficient. This way should let water enter at the center or can erode the blades. If not enough water sprayed in then all the water evaporates before the chamber. The best water systems use kind of crude nozzles to significant size drops make it into chamber to absorb the heat of compression and some left over for combustion photon absorption - before strange things happen with the water acting as catalysis and complexing with hydrocarbons to burn fast instead of explode and then breaking up into H fuel and O electron accepting oxidizer. Also as mentioned the water that turns to steams trades temp for pressure like a steam engine. Some humidity helps combustion which also makes its own water too.

The methanol added in aircraft was mainly as antifreeze but does have it own power adding/cooling benifits. Many the modern turbo guys use 50/50 windsheild washer fluid.

On Peel I figure I should have water kick in about 5-6 lb boost but not needed on low throttle low boost curise. Clac's imply Peel will need water sprayed in at 15% of fuel mass sucked in to allow full brake torque pressure ignition timing.

Check out RBRacing and the others here
https://www.google.com/#psj=1&q=rb+raci ... +injection

In reading these threads, it seems much is made of the latent heat of vaporization of water, as if it is some magic energy source that can propell you down the road faster. All liquids possess a latent heat of vaporization....by definition it is the amount of heat necessary to change a pound of the substance from the liquid to the vapor state. For water this value is approx 1000 BTU's per pound of water.

If one pound of water is exposed to a dry air mass, and if that water entirely evaporates, then 1000 BTU's will be taken up by the water. The 1000 BTU's comes from the air mass, and conservation of energy requires that the air mass temperature drop to reflect this loss of heat. This is the principle of evaporative cooling. When the air mass reaches 100% relative humidity, no more water can evaporate, and no more cooling of the air mass occurs.

Water does not burn, I.e. liberate energy by combining with oxygen....it may dissociate at the high temperatures in a combustion chamber to H and O, but dissociation takes energy from the combustion, not imparting energy to it. If re-combination of the H and O occurs, the hydrogen burns, giving back the energy dissociation robbed from the process.

a mixture of methanol and water provides both cooling and a source of combustion energy, but due attention must be given to maintaining the stoichiometric ratio ( we have been through this before on this forum). The admixture of a combustible substance to an otherwise stoichiometric air/fuel mixture necessarily richens the ratio.

Water & iron bores in engine = rust :!: :!:

If you really want a free power boost in your engine, and I am not kidding, put a couple of very small plastic funnels on the front of your bike and connect them to a small bore hose like those from car heaters and put them close to the intakes. You WILL get an extra kick at around 60 mph :idea:

Hardburn, all combustion produces water to rust so its always good to only start up if going to full heat of oil to cook off moisture and replace the ZADP layer that's wiped off on each start. Ram air by funnel method takes like over 100 mph and optimalized 'funnel' and air box to get a few hp that can be detected at such rates, otherwise mostly just adds drag. Deflected air flow so pressure wave forms at carb intake will be felt in the seat. Air flow on a Commando splts around engine then slap together right in front of the carbs/air box.