OK so i got it started! now more questions

I picked up my bike tuesday from the Modern Classics show, and the weather broke for the weekend here in eastern PA so i decided to roll her out and try to get her started. She hadent been run for a few years before i bought her last fall, and i wanted to go over everythinng durning her re-build before starting her up. drained the mother of all wet sumps, changed oil, and filter, 3 qts of new oil, a couple of gallons of gas, and pushed her outside. after seeing pictures on here of what a burned up commando looks like i gathered my fire extinguishers too.
Turned on the gas, no leaks, let the carbs fill, gave them each about 4 squirts, first question: is gas supposed to come out at the tickler when you pump them? how many squirts should i be giving?
Key on, Kicker wont budge. i'd tried it several times before and it operated normally, now it seems mechanically locked up. messed around with it for a while, then it seemed to work ok. kicked the crap out of it until i was sucking wind (just had a 5 day respirtory flue) tickled the carbs again tried kicking with the throttle fully opened. BTW im 168 lbs right now and i can barely kick this thing over, i was hoping it would be a one kick bike.

It seemed like the bike wanted to run but i havent figured out the combination yet of tickling, kicking and trottle yet. after varoius tries i heard a noise that took me by suprise, and i reallised it was running! feed in more throttle, revs great, no smoke any where, after a couple of minutes i let her idle on her own which she did at about 1500 rpm (Tach works!) tried all the systems, everything is working great, charging OK, oil preassure OK, so i shut her down.

I left her sit a minute and decided to start her again to see if it would be easier on the re-start, this time it seemed like the kicker wasnt engaging at all, althought there was a little resistance, but it wasnt spinning the engine, so second question: does anybody have any ideas of whats going on with my kicker?

A little more messing around with it and the kicker re-engaged but enough time had passed that i had to start the whole process over again, i got her running and pulled her back into the garage under her own power.

Today i thought i'd do a repeat until i learn the bike better i dont want to venture out onto the roads, again took about 5-10 minutes of fussing, and kicking, but she roared to life and ran well. two trips up and down my driveway getting second gear each time, she seems to run great and i proved the speedo works too. I did notice a little smoke out the LH pipe, and the kicker was on and off dodgey too, but better than yesterday.

Thanks for listening i'm a little bit excited, Rich

vuuduu21 said:

first question: is gas supposed to come out at the tickler when you pump them? how many squirts should i be giving?

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The tickler is not a pump, once the fuel has risen to the level where it drips from tickler then that's it, nothing further will be achieved by "pumping" the tickler, simply press and hold down each tickler button until fuel starts to drip, then release.

Like LAB says with the ticklers. Most likely it will drip off the bottom of the bowl. Then stop, it's ready to go. Shouldn't need any throttle, but I do give it a bit maybe 1/4. Need to look into kicker. Are you sure it's stuck sometimes. Just give it full weight on the kicker, it may be on compression, it will eventually go over compression, that's where you want to start kicking, just over compression. I have to get up on both pegs with both feet to get it to go through another compression stroke, but if it's ready to start not necessary. You just need to get the routine down. No reason unless somethings wrong if the kicker won't turn over the engine unless you have the clutch pulled in.

Dave
69S

vuuduu21 said:

IKey on, Kicker wont budge. i'd tried it several times before and it operated normally, now it seems mechanically locked up. messed around with it for a while, then it seemed to work ok. kicked the crap out of it until i was sucking wind (just had a 5 day respirtory flue) tickled the carbs again tried kicking with the throttle fully opened. BTW im 168 lbs right now and i can barely kick this thing over, i was hoping it would be a one kick bike.

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Was there any gearbox work done during the down time? Layshaft bearing changed? Shimming performed?

Ok good to know on the ticklers. I thought they were like a primer on an aircraft engine where it gives a little squirt into the intake with each pump. So just old down till it drips a bit then let go? Do you have to repeat that if it doesn't start right away?

I didn't do anything with the gearbox myself. PO rebuilt it prior to my involvement FYI it has a production racer kick lever but I have to get up on both pegs with the bike on the center stand to get enough force to kick it over. Of course I'm just getting my strength back from being sick.

My CB750 I can kick over almost sitting on the seat, of course that's a 4 cyl.

Thanks

vuuduu21 said:

Do you have to repeat that if it doesn't start right away?

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It depends, if the engine doesn't start after a few kicks, although knowing exactly when is something that will come from experience, but try to avoid overdoing it, as you could end up flooding the engine and fouling the plugs and once you master the starting routine you should be able to regularly start the engine in two or three kicks.

I have always found my Brit bikes to start best with the throttle completely closed. With the slide down you get max vacuum pull on the idle circuit. Does your bike still have the air slides? If it does these should be down.
If after a couple of repeats of the tickle, throttle closed and kick routine it hasn't started it is probably flooded. To clear the flood, don't tickle and open the throttle about half way and give it a few kicks, often times that's enough to start it.

You might give this a try. With the bike on the centerstand, stand on the right side of it on your left leg and operate the kickstarter with your right leg. I know a lot of people say not to start the bike on the centerstand but I have been doing it for years with no adverse effect. I think the term kickstarter is a bit of a misnomer. You really don't want to kick it, more of a shove it thru, where you start slow and build speed. Given equal displacement, a two cylinder is harder to kick than a four because you have more volume coming up to compression at once and even worse on a single cylinder. I weigh about 225 and I find kicking my newly rebuilt 750 over a chanllenge.

Those ticklers are actually a rolled pin under that button. When you press down, the other end pushes down on the float, letting more gas in the inlet valve in the float bowl. When gas bubbles out the tickler, which also acts as a bowl vent, you're ready to go.

Once the bike is all adjusted properly and its trained you, one or two kicks should do it every time.

Since you are in a cold part of the US did you use the choke? If not that will be part of your starting problem.
If after a few kicks with choke and no start pull choke in and then several kicks with half throttle.
The resistance you are feeling at kicker may be caused by trying to push it over from too high up and it may not offer enough leverage.
I like to start my kick no higher than 10 O'Clock.

rx7171 said:

The resistance you are feeling at kicker may be caused by trying to push it over from too high up and it may not offer enough leverage.
I like to start my kick no higher than 10 O'Clock.

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That's a good point.
I mount my kickstart levers at about 10 O'clock. Easier to kick and the lever doesn't hit my shin.

Mine takes a good few kicks too after it has sat for a while but once run regularly its a one or two kick start. Heres my procedure
1) Open fuel tap
2) Tickle amals til fuel appears
3) Open and close throttle fully
4) Give it one kick through (Key off)
5) Key on,Run switch "ON" and Kick through without touching the throttle.
If no start at #5 kick again but usually that does it. If still no start but sounds like it dies try catching it with the throttle until it warms up and then it will idle on its own.

Addressing the kicker issues:

The problems have nothing to do with the kicker, other than the fact that it is the lever actuating the internals that can have certain well-known issues.

First is the clutch. The plates can stick together if the bike has been sitting, resulting in a clutch that is engaged at all times, even when you pull in the lever. THAT is not your problem, as you have been able to disengage it without the bike taking off on it's own.

Next is slipping clutch which results in low kick pedal resistance. There are several causes including worn plates, oiled plates and clutch adjustment (which can be either in the cable, center adjuster, or both).

Last is loose bushings in the transmission that cause misalignment of the kickstart shaft, resulting in a "stuck" lever. I have found you can TEMPORARILY get around that malady by pulling in the clutch lever and rotating through a few degrees, then release the lever and kick. This is also how I select the optimum angle for the kicker just before I kick; I prefer the lever to be installed at whatever upright angle produces the least intrusion on my lower leg / ankle space when I'm riding.

The advice that's already been given on "tickling" the carbs is spot-on, as is use of the enricher (choke) slides when cold. The little choke lever needs to fully RELEASE cable tension to start the bike, then pull slowly on the lever as the bike warms up, to avoid over-rich mix and fouled plugs. You will know you forgot to pull che chokes up if the bike won't run over 30 MPH but just splutters and stalls.

Have fun!

vuuduu21 said:

My CB750 I can kick over almost sitting on the seat, of course that's a 4 cyl.

Thanks

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The Norton is a man's bike (no offense Debby!) and you have to be serious when starting.

All, thanks for the great information.

The bike still has the choke / airslides and the PO said to not use them when starting unless it was really cold. it was 50ish here over the weekend so i left them off. i think i may have had it flooded as i was missunderstanding the ticklers function, and when i did finally get it started the throttle was wide open as i was afraid it was flooded and thought i'd try to dry out the cylinders by turning it over w/ open throttle.

the ideas on the kicker arm location are great, mine is at the 11 oclock position at least, so using the clutch to get it back / down some will give me better mechanical advantage on it.

FYI, i started it on the center stand, i couldnt kick it hard enough on the side stand. is this not a recomended practice?

vuuduu21 said:

All, thanks for the great information.

The bike still has the choke / airslides and the PO said to not use them when starting unless it was really cold. it was 50ish here over the weekend so i left them off. i think i may have had it flooded as i was missunderstanding the ticklers function, and when i did finally get it started the throttle was wide open as i was afraid it was flooded and thought i'd try to dry out the cylinders by turning it over w/ open throttle.

the ideas on the kicker arm location are great, mine is at the 11 oclock position at least, so using the clutch to get it back / down some will give me better mechanical advantage on it.

FYI, i started it on the center stand, i couldnt kick it hard enough on the side stand. is this not a recomended practice?

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Off stands is best, center stand is ok, side stand makes us cringe.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6886wWeh8UQ[/video]

Center stand here for sure. easing the pistons to TDC then giving here a big ole boot is key. A small tickle and the boot and she's running.

My Norton likes a little choke and tickle in cooler weather. My 71 Trophy is tickle only, 70 tiger is a choke and tickle. Every bike is different.

FYI, i started it on the center stand, i couldnt kick it hard enough on the side stand. is this not a recomended practice?[/quote]

At 168 pounds if you have the center stand that is the more robust one put on bikes starting about 1972 (correct me guys) I would keep starting on it.
I weigh about that and I've used the center stand almost exclusively since especially when cold I need to put all my weight into it and I don't like having to balance the bike while I'm doing it.