oil pump output check?

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N0rt0nelectr@

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I was reading here on the forum about someone who can do a flow check on a Norton oil pump but for the life of me I can't find the link.
Who was it ?
Right now I have to many bikes being fixed and not enough on the road, what is wrong with me? No, don't answer that, my wife will tell me soon enough.

John in Texas
 
I demonstrated my rigs at 3 east coast INOA rallies.
Recently tested 2 "nos" pumps from a west coast dealer for a NENO friend.
We kept one (the better one) sent the other back
I have revised my test procedure several time and now have a test I am much happier with. The resolution is now much better and are pretty repeatable. I have a few dozen pumps as my samples, and I can run either 3 start or 6 start drives.

http://atlanticgreen.com/images/oilrigdynamic1.jpg
http://atlanticgreen.com/images/oilrigdynamic2.jpg

This rig measures flow/excess internal clearances to show how likely a pump will wet sump.
http://atlanticgreen.com/images/oilrigstatic3.jpg

I use ATF since the room temp viscosity mimics engine oil at operating temp. I try to keep the ATF at 68deg since I know temp affects the outcome.

I have helped NENO members diagnose blow ups of fresh rebuilds due to bad pumps.
I prevented 2 guys from using garbage pumps in their rebuilds...that would have led to very unhappy results.
Its a good learing tool but there is no money in it :cry:
 
What/how are you actually testing here ?
Is your methodology described anywhere ?
That doesn't appear to be a whole assembled engine, so its ability to hold an oil pressure can't be under test ??
Where are new pumps deficient in failing your tests ?

dynodave said:
Its a good lear(n)ing (sic) tool but there is no money in it

If you could accurately test if a pump was not capable of delivering a reliable oil pressure,
or was seriously liable to wetsump, folks would pay to have their pump tested ??

My father used to manufacture and remanufacture small agricultural oil pumps -
every farm tractor ever made* has one or more in them.
They typically have a working pressure of 3000 psi, and they have to be pretty worn to not deliver that.
Cast bronze bodies help the wear factor - and make them easy to cast and machine.
* mit hydraulics, prewar stuff maybe not.
 
Rohan said:
Next it will be that light bulbs don't feel any lighter..... ?

Don't know what light bulbs have to do with an oil pumps ability to circulate oil,but I have seen light bulbs get dimmer and flicker when the electric supply has been interrupted for whatever reason. If your engine oil pump has had its flow tested at least you know it's one link less to worry about. Anyway got to go ,more atoms to split or is it hairs.
Jg
 
auldblue said:
Rohan said:
Next it will be that light bulbs don't feel any lighter..... ?

Don't know what light bulbs have to do with an oil pumps ability to circulate oil,but I have seen light bulbs get dimmer and flicker when the electric supply has been interrupted for whatever reason. If your engine oil pump has had its flow tested at least you know it's one link less to worry about. Anyway got to go ,more atoms to split or is it hairs.
Jg

This, the flow rate is what's important as that's what overcomes fluid resistance... together with atmospheric pressure, the flow rate of the pump and resistance within the system is what creates pressure

but that's all I remember from highschool science class, so I'm sure I'm missing some nuance in there somewhere...
 
Yes, you only have oil pressure when there is something to prevent the oil from simply flowing away...

Now, we are curious if Dave is going to elaborate on what was so flawed with this oil pump that it wasn't capable of functioning as advertised. Its hard to imagine something as simple as a newly manufactured oil pump that can't deliver as intended - what could go so badly wrong in the manufacturing/machining that it would pass visual inspection, but fail to deliver oil flow/pressure ??
 
acadian, I enjoy investigating nuance :mrgreen:


rt click to see full chart
oil pump output check?

Dynamic Testing is at 100-200-300-400-500rpm pump shaft speed
BG oil pump came out of a freshly rebuilt atlas. Less than 100 miles put on by new owner. New NENO owner had lost confidence in the skill/or quality of work by seller. So we tore the engine down to find many other problems too!

R3* was "new"/NOS pump that was sent back since I did not want to pay full price for a pump that was not as good as my used AG-09. I have plenty more that were better.

R6* was the one kept to replace the BG pump.
 
Unfortunately my iPad does not want expose the rest of the graph. So I'm pumped no nuance (whatever that is ) implied or expected, it's just that I sent a pump away to be tested whatever it entails to see if it is good a few days ago, but according to some it's a waste of time but it's my fecking engine and I want to try and keep it in one piece at least for the time being.

Jg
 
auldblue said:
Unfortunately my iPad does not want expose the rest of the graph. So I'm pumped no nuance (whatever that is ) implied or expected, it's just that I sent a pump away to be tested whatever it entails to see if it is good a few days ago, but according to some it's a waste of time but it's my fecking engine and I want to try and keep it in one piece at least for the time being. Jg

I dare to suggest (temporarily) fitting an oil pressure gauge to find out yourself the condition of your pump 8)
 
I stick them up on a lathe with the top nut in the chuck and spin them that way whilst feeding them oil.
 
nortonspeed said:
auldblue said:
Unfortunately my iPad does not want expose the rest of the graph. So I'm pumped no nuance (whatever that is ) implied or expected, it's just that I sent a pump away to be tested whatever it entails to see if it is good a few days ago, but according to some it's a waste of time but it's my fecking engine and I want to try and keep it in one piece at least for the time being. Jg

I dare to suggest (temporarily) fitting an oil pressure gauge to find out yourself the condition of your pump 8)

That is sound advice and when the pump comes back and I've fitted the new PRV etc I will be putting my OPG on and see what's going on in there as it was not scavenging properly after having its guts revved out on a dyno that software was us, 42 and a bit hp and I have tanned it but it didn't want to go over 90 and it was bloody uncomfortable with the wind and it didn't blow up or sound bad in any way. But showed return but dipstick was " too sort" as a fair bit still in the sump, but hey ho.

Jg
 
Having discovered that I had minimal apparent oil delivery to the rocker spindles, over the week end, I serviced my '73's oil pump. Surfaced the brass end plate and both ends of the pump body; installed new seals on pump, crank, and ignition shaft.

Before, on cold oil I couldn't get 30 pounds, measured at the last banjo of the rocker spindle supply line. After, I had to remove an oil pressure relief valve shim to bring it down to 10 pounds/1000 rpm. Still not a lot of volume though. I guess volume is restricted.

I've got a small oil cooler for the rocker spindle line and I'd like to get more volume to flow through it to the head. How do I do that? Is there a restrictor orifice in the timing cover? Or is the restriction just the internal sizing of the AN-3 banjo barbs?
 
Oil pumps are as close to bulletproof as it is possible for a mechanical pump to be. The restricting factor is the setting of the pressure relief valve. IF unrestricted, a typical oil pump will blow out the seals around the oil filter or fracture the filter itself as the RPM goes up.

The problem with measuring oil flow is that, AFAIK, there are no specs for what that should be. SO...the fact that on a workbench pump A puts out more volume in X seconds at Y RPM than pump B doesn't mean that pump A works better in the engine. If both pumps can produce sufficient pressure in the application, both are suitable. Since there ARE oil pressure specs for engines, it's an easy thing to measure using an OP gauge. There are plenty of OP gauge sets that can be attached to any engine to read OP. It's similar to installing an air filter that can "flow more air" and expecting some sort of performance improvement. If the OEM filter can supply sufficient air for the engine at max load, a filter that can flow more does nothing.
 
From what I understand, increasing flow to the rockers can be achieved by turning the spindles 180 degrees.

But... that causes excessive oil consumption as the rocker box fills and submerges the top of the guides.

So... increasing the oil flow would therefore only seem viable if you can also increase the drainage ability. I guess the only way to do this is the Maney style large ID external pipe method. IMHO it’s a lot of work for limited gain and you may cause other issues in doing so.

IMHO, fitting an oil cooler in the rocker feed is a good idea (one I intend to do also) and with the cooler in place, a slowish flow is a good thing as it will allow more heat loss through the cooler.

So, keep the flow standard and fit a cooler would be my idea of the best overal approach.
 
Commoz’ oil scar tests show that temps near or greater than 400 f reduce most oils’ capacity to protect our cams/followers. Our engines’ heads do reach those oil damaging temps.

Jim’s tests also show that the tipping point in terms of the temp at which an oil fails can be sudden such that a ten degree reduction might be the difference between an oil’s life and it’s death.

I’m focused on volume of flow because volume is necessary for a rocker line cooler to make any substantial reduction in exhaust side rocker box temps. A cooled dribble won’t help much.

I may be mis-interpreting or overstating what Jim’s tests imply. And, this is one of those mods that are low on the cost/benefit/risk/liability calculus
 
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