Oil Consumption-This might be your problem too!

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L.A.B.

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Since we both agree rings rotate, what are the chances of him tearing the engine apart at the exact time of them lining up?

As they do rotate then they cannot be in their original positions.

You’re telling me that one in a trillion City Garage won the lottery of the mighty piston ring alignment prize?

As you agree that rings rotate then the rings being in the position they were found cannot be down to human error but something else.
How many times does it have to be said?

How do you know the ring groves are not to tight from day one when the rings were assembled into the piston?

And how do you know they were?
So now you are saying the rings haven't rotated. Could you at least make up your mind? Tight ring grooves wouldn't be an "assembly worker" error unless you think assembly workers stop to measure every individual part?

Why is it so hard for you to believe that humans are ignorant or make mistakes that this is most likely a human error?

How can it possibly be put down to human error if, as you have already agreed, rings rotate?


Instead you seem to believe that they just magically aligned at the time of tear down.

No, I don't think they "just magically aligned" (eh Voodooo?) only that the human error argument doesn't hold up so there must be another reason.

I asked you clearly. Why didn’t he just keep running the engine until they rotated and fix itself and stopped smoking and when the compression raised and fixed itself.

See previous reply.

I asked you clearly If you accept rings rotate then they are not going to be in the same position they were when fitted 2500 miles back, yes or no? but got no answer.
 

City Garage

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You know this post was about what we found, and it turned into a back and forth over who can post what they found from the internet and not any real-world experience someone has had with THIS model of motorcycle except some dealer experience, etc. We actually work on these motorcycles; we have torn down, fixed, and we have had parts made, we have dug into the ECU issues, etc. Maybe not as much as Ollie has, but he and I have shared information back and forth with other members of this forum privately as I know they appreciate learning anything they can.

I base what I say on what we do every day. Our high level of experience plus the legendary status of expertise I have supporting the shop, as I have stated before, we have some of the best engine builders right here in my same shop complex so I tend to listen to people who actually do the work not just find videos or articles to support whatever position they want to stand on. I think qualifying your answer like that is feckless, just like when someone asks a motorcycle question and someone answer with a tractor answer. Not quite apples to apples, and in most cases, it just takes the topic in the wrong direction.

The indisputable FACT of this post seems to be lost on one or two people who seem to want to tear at people. This is why people are afraid to share things or in our case, if someone wants to muddy the waters over the original issue, why bother sharing at all.

Here is our official opinion on what we found. I say opinion, so we don't get taken to the woodshed for saying its a fact even though, you know through our vast experience and that of the people who work here and those who consult with us say they agree, we will just say opinion, so we don't get another doctoral thesis on internet research.

The motorcycle was eating oil(high oil consumption) with no visible smoke. 5 miles of semi-spirited riding was producing 1.5 ounces of oil in the airbox. Compression and leak down done.

Compression and other factors dictated that we take apart the top end.

Upon removing the top end, we found the rings as pictured. To be clear again BOTH ring sets were lined up as pictured. We didn't touch anything outside of placing a shop towel in the open case. I know the pictures arent full size, but you can clearly see the vertical rub on the piston, which others have mentioned, not to mention what might not be so clear is the pitting on the skirts

When we looked in the barrels, there were corresponding vertical scars where the rings were lined up. If you require a picture of that as well so I can prove my OPINION, then please let me know.

Our OPINION is that the rings were installed incorrectly ON BOTH SIDES, and that, coupled with the play of the crappy pistons, created a scar on the cylinder wall that didn't allow the rings to shift or rotate ON BOTH SIDES. Most likely due to immediate high RPM revving with minimal oiling that created the issue.

Anyone can make the argument for one cylinder but to both being aligned like we found is just ignorant and not looking at all the factors.
 

L.A.B.

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Our OPINION is that the rings were installed incorrectly ON BOTH SIDES, and that, coupled with the play of the crappy pistons, created a scar on the cylinder wall that didn't allow the rings to shift or rotate ON BOTH SIDES.

That's a change from what you said previously.

Built many engines and never had rings rotate. They might shift slightly but never moved.
 

City Garage

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That's a change from what you said previously.
OK let's clear that up for you since you seem to be a grade-A Asshat. I have personally never seen rings rotate 360 degrees. When we Americans say rotate it doesn't always mean that it went 360 degrees around.

But since you want to play word games and highlight things and by the lack of clarifying your vast first-hand experience with 961's I'll second what Voodooo said and add you must be fun at parties you arrogant ass
 

L.A.B.

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With all due respect, your a bloody idiot and love to argue.

No, just sceptical of the apparent human error explanation.

Who the hell are you?

I'm me, who are you? Edit: On second thoughts I don't really want to know.

I’ve never seen you on this modem section

You can't have looked properly then.

and you seem to just like to argue.

No, only when I'm not convinced by an explanation that doesn't seem to add up but I'm not going to bother exchanging insults.

OK let's clear that up for you since you seem to be a grade-A Asshat. I have personally never seen rings rotate 360 degrees. When we Americans say rotate it doesn't always mean that it went 360 degrees around.

We non-Americans probably do too.
But since you want to play word games and highlight things and by the lack of clarifying your vast first-hand experience with 961's I'll second what Voodooo said and add you must be fun at parties you arrogant ass

Whatever.

I’m now convinced. You are the one that installed the rings on City Garages engine. Fess up, you fucked up. You’re trying to make yourself look brilliant. Stop. You’re embarrassing yourself here. Move along.

I disagree.
 
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marshg246

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Jerry,

Please lock this thread - language, personal attacks, going nowhere and getting worse. I'm sorry to have added to it and I'm sure Les would lock and/or more if he weren't stuck in the middle.

Greg...
 

City Garage

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Jerry,

Please lock this thread - language, personal attacks, going nowhere and getting worse. I'm sorry to have added to it and I'm sure Les would lock and/or more if he weren't stuck in the middle.

Greg...
Stuck in the middle? Understatement of the year. As he is forum moderator, you think copying and posting and highlighting every little bit is the middle? No sir that's stirring the pot and whatever backlash he gets is on him.
 

Time Warp

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L.A.B.

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Stuck in the middle? Understatement of the year. As he is forum moderator, you think copying and posting and highlighting every little bit is the middle? No sir that's stirring the pot and whatever backlash he gets is on him.



Sorry, you and the other fellow have got so upset that you resorted to insults as I only expressed an opinion that the human error explanation of the ring gaps being placed together is at least questionable and highlighted the fact that rings do in some way rotate under normal circumstances.
 
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I’m now convinced. You worked at Garners Norton and are the one that installed the rings on City Garages engine. Fess up, you fucked up. You’re trying to make yourself look brilliant. Stop. You’re embarrassing yourself here. Move along.
Les knows more about classic Nortons and motorcycles in general than just about anyone on the forum. I learned a long time ago that his info is almost always spot on. On the rare occasion when it isn't, he has always said " My mistake"
And we move on.

Glen
 
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I’ll take the blame and admit I added fuel to the fire, but give me a break here, he likes to argue.
If his 17,000 or so posts over the last twenty years are any indication, I would say his favourite thing to do is to help people solve problems they are having with their Nortons.

Glen
 

L.A.B.

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I’m sorry you can’t handle the fact that humans make errors.

No, that wasn't my point at all. Only expressing a doubt that it was definitely the result of human error.

I'm sorry you can't accept that and found the need to resort to insults that only undermine your argument.
 

Time Warp

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This adds a whole new dimension to handbags at 20 paces but am starting to see why these bikes seem to have low mileages or simply hardly ridden for the best part of a decade.
$30k / $40k bike here and never seen one on the road.

My empathy to any owner who soldiers on with one.
 

L.A.B.

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Why can you not accept the fact of human assembly error? Why is that so hard for you?

Because so far there is no hard evidence that it is a "fact" at all.

It seems to me, that you never made a mistake on your life, instead you blame your errors on everything else except yourself.

If you think that then you'd be wrong.
 

City Garage

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Hmmmmmmm I wonder what oil was in that 961? :oops:
It’s actually funny it took this long for somebody to even ask about the oil and even after I posted something about our opinion about the lack of oil contributing to this issue no one said anything

That's been my point all along. Asking probative questions contribute to a discussion instead of continuing to post the same copy and paste stuff.

Oil or lack of oil was one of our thoughts or contributing factors
 

L.A.B.

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Of the billions of engine cylinders in the world, city garage is the first one to ever have this miracle happen.

How do you know it's first?

So great one, please tell me, why don’t the engine manufacturers pin all rings to prevent this from happening ever again.

4-stroke rings rotate don't they so there's no need.

So what you’re saying is humans can not possibly make mistakes. Ok gotcha.

No, only that as yet there's no proof that it was an assembly mistake. I don't know how many more times I have to say the same thing.

Don’t worry. I know you made mistakes. The comments you keep making here are just some of them.

In your opinion that I don't necessarily agree with.

it’s like 3am in your neck of the woods. I can’t believe you’re still up trying to defend your theories.

I can't believe I'm having to repeat myself again and again.
 
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