Numbers mismatch

The engine/transmission numbers (which match) don't match the frame number on my bike. Jimbo, a forum friend, suggested that BOTH the engine and transmission as well as the painted body parts, tank and side covers, are from another bike. The Despatch Record shows that from the factory the bike was a red Roadster from batch 288A destined for Canada with engine/transmission number 328777 and frame number 129533. The Canadian Warning Light Control Unit (06-6392) looks like it has never been disturbed, which is further confirmation the bike was meant for Canada.

I'm assuming that Machine No. on the despatch record means engine/transmission number. On the Despatch Record it shows my engine number (shown as Machine No.), 327208, was in a white bike in batch 245A. The color matches, but the frame number doesn't. On the line with my frame number, 129533, it shows a red bike, but mine has the John Player paint scheme and a different engine number, 328777. This engine number, 328777, matches the stamped plate number on my bike.

It has been suggested that BOTH the engine and transmission as well as the painted body parts are from another bike.

Can anyone come up with any other viable explanations?





Engine



Transmission



Frame



Stamped Plate



Canadian Warning Light Control Unit 06-6392



My Bike (oil tank cover removed)

You have a very nice bike , sometimes tracing the past can be overwhelming .... if it works as good as looks , I be riding ....

Bodywork is very interchangeable on Commandos, so engine and transmission from one bike, frame from another and the bodywork from another or repainted.

White could be the factory ref to the red/white/blue scheme as the JPN ref was for the MK2a JPN racer replica.

Arlen Johnson said:

The engine/transmission numbers (which match) don't match the frame number on my bike. Jimbo, a forum friend, suggested that BOTH the engine and transmission as well as the painted body parts, tank and side covers, are from another bike. The Despatch Record shows that from the factory the bike was a red Roadster from batch 288A destined for Canada with engine/transmission number 328777 and frame number 129533. The Canadian Warning Light Control Unit (06-6392) looks like it has never been disturbed, which is further confirmation the bike was meant for Canada.

I'm assuming that Machine No. on the despatch record means engine/transmission number. On the Despatch Record it shows my engine number (shown as Machine No.), 327208, was in a white bike in batch 245A. The color matches, but the frame number doesn't. On the line with my frame number, 129533, it shows a red bike, but mine has the John Player paint scheme and a different engine number, 328777. This engine number, 328777, matches the stamped plate number on my bike.

It has been suggested that BOTH the engine and transmission as well as the painted body parts are from another bike.

Can anyone come up with any other viable explanations?

Engine

Transmission

Frame

Stamped Plate

Canadian Warning Light Control Unit 06-6392

My Bike (oil tank cover removed)

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What number(s) are on your title or other Govt document? Might let you know when something was changed. Wrecked bikes are often repaired with a donor. For instance your frame may have had a blown engine but a good frame and the engine/gearbox were taken from a wreck bike. At least it doesn't seem like someone tried to hide anything.

Does it really matter as long as its been done right and who knows what has happened to it in 46 years of its life.

Yes, differing numbers between drive train and frame. Kind of like tracing your family on ancestry. com.
Your documentation pretty much points to a later frame on your MKIII. What's missing is any accident/ insurance information on s/n 327208 or 328777. That would account for another frame s/n if a insurance company was involved. Otherwise, is was fixed out of pocket. Still, if a carfax, etc query yields something, another bit of info.
Easy enough to put another frame plate on the neck with same s/n if that's what you want. I'd probably do that and get over the difference .
I have two with no numbers on the trans case after destroying the trans cases. Probably a rarity that trans cases had s/n's anyway.

Deckard said:

Probably a rarity that trans cases had s/n's anyway.

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Since the AMC box era at least mid 50's...they all had a #. Only in commando era, the # match when leaving the factory

Arlen Johnson said:

My Bike (oil tank cover removed)

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The tank isn't what I would call the standard Mk3 Roadster shape which is more rounded at the front and has no raised weld seam, see the link, below.

It could just be the light but looks as if it might have a reversed pre-Mk3 (lock ring hub) wheel? The rear rim doesn't seem to be the standard 3x1 dimple pattern (and both sets of spokes appear to be stainless so the wheels have been rebuilt).

I thought that at some point Norton had frames made in Italy. Those frames had numbers stamped on them that differed from the engine and gearboxes & I.D. Plates when they were built up at the factory in England.

cjandme said:

I thought that at some point Norton had frames made in Italy. Those frames had numbers stamped on them that differed from the engine and gearboxes & I.D. Plates when they were built up at the factory in England.

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That started with the 850 at some point and these numbers did not appear in the despatch records as they were for internal use only, but directly on the introduction of the MK3 they became part of the factory records and were 'official'. I have a MK2a with the internal frame number stamp and this was used as the frame number on the V5 (UK Title) not the normal matching to engine number stamped on the red plate, so some dealers did use it before the MK3 for registration purposes but the factory did not intend for it to be used until the MK3.

cjandme said:

I thought that at some point Norton had frames made in Italy. Those frames had numbers stamped on them that differed from the engine and gearboxes & I.D. Plates when they were built up at the factory in England.

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Yes, the number on the frame plate should match the engine and gearbox number (327208) but doesn't (328777).

The records show frame number F129533 allocated to '328777' and frame F126924 to 327208, therefore, frame F129533 and plate 328777 are a match but don't belong with engine and gearbox 327208.

kommando said:

That started with the 850 at some point and these numbers did not appear in the despatch records as they were for internal use only, but directly on the introduction of the MK3 they became part of the factory records and were 'official'. I have a MK2a with the internal frame number stamp and this was used as the frame number on the V5 (UK Title) not the normal matching to engine number stamped on the red plate, so some dealers did use it before the MK3 for registration purposes but the factory did not intend for it to be used until the MK3.

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Clarification___

1) At least by 320691 the frame number was shown on the dispatch record and by 334003 is was not.
2) Initially, the MKIII frame numbers did not match either, but starting around May 1975, the number stamped into the frame matched the engine and certification plate serial number in most cases.

I've been told that Reynolds 850 frame numbers (the last 6) matched the engine number but that's never been proven to me. If someone has such a bike I would love to add the info here: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoSurvey.aspx and update the comments here: https://www.gregmarsh.com/MC/Norton/CommandoID.aspx and as always, if anyone has proof that anything is wrong on either page I would like to hear it.

dynodave said:

Since the AMC box era at least mid 50's...they all had a #. Only in commando era, the # match when leaving the factory

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Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Commando's with that statement. Other brands utilized the AMC gearbox and didn't try to match numbers. I actually like that both my Commandos have new cases without numbers. Better cases than OEM and no number mismatch with engine & frame

Time Warp said:

You have Mk2A 311032 listed as frame number 105226 which is incorrect (I just included its stamped F 850 number being a metric frame)

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You've said previously that 105226 was the number stamped on the frame which makes it the frame number although the plate number is often recorded as the frame number.

Time Warp said:

As mentioned 311032 is the number on the legal documents from the USA as it is in Australia

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Yes, the number on the documentation may well be 311032 but the number stamped on the frame is 105226 therefore the information isn't incorrect.

Well, regardless of what's stated on documentation, according to the records posted above, the factory regarded the number stamped on the frame as the "Frame Number."
The number on the plate was the "Machine Number".

Time Warp said:

On Mk111's ?
Based on that any frame with no F number has no frame number so it would be identified how ?

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Mk3s do have a frame number. The later Mk3s have a frame number that matches the plate number. Earlier Mk3s do not have matching numbers.

Time Warp said:

You have Mk2A 311032 listed as frame number 105226 which is incorrect (I just included its stamped F 850 number being a metric frame)
Its steering head data plate stamped Dec73 has the engine/gearbox number stamped onto it from the factory (311032)
That same number was also used on its US title.

View attachment 78704

A pity the Mk2a records are not available or incomplete.

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Slightly confused. On the right side of the headstock stamped directly into the steel, what does it say? Does the red certification label affixed to the front of the headstock show 311032 and Dec 73 ( or 3 73)? Do the engine and gearbox have 311032 stamped into them?

marshg246 said:

Slightly confused. On the right side of the headstock stamped directly into the steel, what does it say? Does the red certification label affixed to the front of the headstock show 311032 and Dec 73 ( or 3 73)? Do the engine and gearbox have 311032 stamped into them?

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Reading from post #16 should explain.

L.A.B. said:

Reading from post #16 should explain.

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I guess I'm reading it wrong as I still am not sure what is perceived as wrong. I added the 850F to the frame number incase that's the complaint.