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Nourish Engineering update ?

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Related Discussions' started by Fast Eddie, Apr 25, 2017.

  1. Triton Thrasher

    Triton Thrasher

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    If someone who owned the drawings sold them to the NOC, then why do you think they belong to anyone other than NOC?
     
  2. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    Its the Intellectual Property of the design contained within the drawing that was owned by Norton Motors, this IP is still valid and represented by the drawing which will have a copyright notice on it.

    There will be an argument that this IP was abandoned when the drawings were chucked out back in the 60's but that would need to be tested by the courts.

    https://www.gov.uk/intellectual-property-an-overview

    Owning intellectual property
    You own intellectual property if you:

    • created it (and it meets the requirements for copyright, a patent or a design)
    • bought intellectual property rights from the creator or a previous owner
    • have a brand that could be a trade mark, eg a well-known product name
    Intellectual property can:

    • have more than one owner
    • belong to people or businesses
    • be sold or transferred

    The IP does not get bought when the paper drawing is sold, it gets transferred from one company to another when the company is sold to the next company.
     
  3. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    I think that’s a good argument Kommando. I know it’s easy to get in a bit of a tiz when things like this happen and blame the ‘bullying’ party...

    But IP is important stuff to businesses, arguably more so than ever these days, I don’t think it’s realistic to expect business to let things go, even to an owners club.

    All only IMHO of course.
     
  4. Eljahara

    Eljahara VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2018
    Surely then, the IP rights should really rest with Norton at Donnington as they bought the right to produce machinery and components using the Norton name?

    If NOC bought the drawings in good faith at what was a confused time in the history of Norton, it is entirely possible that they thought they also bought the IP with the original drawings.

    As Kommando says, no doubt it will be tested in court shortly, F.Eddie is also right, a business will not let it go easily....interesting times ahead
     
  5. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    Depends on each sale of company so every sa!e document needs to be read, from what AN say they own the IP for pre 961, Norton Donnington bought Kenny Dreer's IP and none prior to that. But that needs proof not assertion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  6. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    My understanding (right or wrong) is that Garner did indeed own the IP for ‘the old stuff’ and then sold it to AN.

    Hence their desire to protect what they rightfully own having paid out good money for...
     
  7. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    From ANIL's website

    Andover Norton took over when NVT closed down and Dennis Poore bought the spares operation of NVT back from the liquidator. In 1977 he set it up, as part of "new" NVT, in Andover as "Andover Norton International Ltd".

    Andover Norton has a valid, exclusive license giving Andover Norton and no other company the right to use the Norton Trademark for the marketing of Genuine Norton Factory Parts for Norton Commando and Dominator type motorcycles built before 2002.

    Andover Norton has an agreement with Norton America, the previous owners of the Norton Trademark, confirming that Andover Norton owns the Intellectual Property, sole Copyright, and all other rights on all Norton Dominator and Commando models manufactured before 2002.

    Hence the intellectual property on all things Norton Commando and Dominator of the original drawings and tooling can not be taken from Andover Norton by license or any other contract by current Norton trademark owners. Because they do not own it.

    https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/history/
     
  8. Triton Thrasher

    Triton Thrasher

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    So if we were NOC, we’d be making good copies of as many drawings as we could, I suppose.

    Taking anything to court is a bit of a gamble.

    When this sort of thing appears on the AN website, it’s an assertion.

     
  9. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    If they have bough the IP off of the previous rightful owner (if said IF) then it is more than an assertion isn’t it...?
     
  10. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    A statement is an assertion, a sales contract or legal ducument from the previous IP owner clearly transferring the IP ownership is proof as it shows they did buy the IP. It could also be argued the Trademark ownership also included IP ownership (pointless to own 1 but not the other), it looks like the IP ownership got blurred and both the spares and motorcycle maker sides owned the IP hence ANIL doing a deal with Norton Motors to confirm their ownership to stop any disputes.
     
  11. Madnorton

    Madnorton VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Do not get confused, Norton Motorcycles UK limited, as a company, do not own the trademark, Norton America LLC still own it, just so happens that Mr Garner bought Norton America LLC, he owns both companies and many others and kept the TM marks registered under the US company, not much in it really, as it makes no odds in the daily business. It is no great secret, it can all be found on the web.

    Nige, 'if' makes it interesting, do you not think that BSA Regal and AN would have a good idea of what was agreed in 2003, this is still living memory, and not that long ago, I know that the persons involved are a bit older, but I doubt they have lost that many brain cells.

    IP, of which copyright is a part is always owned during the life of the copyright, whether with a company, directors, husband and wife, banks and receivers / administrators etc.
     
  12. kommando

    kommando

    Joined:
    May 7, 2005
    The company I worked for was bought and sold 3 times during my time with them, the IP ownership was always covered in the contract between seller and buyer, there was not always a clear cut movement but always went somewhere. Use of trademarks by former subsidiaries could be allowed for set periods as an example.
     
  13. Champy72

    Champy72

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    Well, after many hours of trying to build the 5 speed box, I have to admit defeat! The holes in the Nourish casting have been machined out of place, so when you mount the T140 inner cover, the gears lock up as the main and lay shafts are twisted! So many modifications to get this far. Shame. Have also ascertained that the High Gear Assembly he supplied (with broken teeth) was not a T140 unit! It has 20 teeth whereas the T140 has 21...
    Need to get some money back to buy a Hemmings unit now.
     
  14. sgburton 88

    sgburton 88

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Im in a similar predicament, the norton 4 speed I was running has blown up, looking to upgrade to the speed gearbox. I have already had the 5 speed triumph cluster, but was looking to using nourish gearbox cases, but by the sounds it's not worth going down that path. Does anyone else make strong cases to 5 speed triumph cluster any more?
    Thanks.
    Sean
     
  15. Champy72

    Champy72

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    You will also need a new mainshaft if you wish to continue with the Norton clutch, and they are poorly machined also.
    If you have the cash, try Mick Hemmings - he does 5 and 6 speed Norton gearbox conversions...
     
    sgburton 88 likes this.
  16. Champy72

    Champy72

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    I also now have a 4 speed standard gearbox for the Norton...!
     
  17. Champy72

    Champy72

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2018
    OK. 6 speed tried out at Chimay, and wow, the engine accelerates so quickly now as the revs are always kept high! Step down and up seamless and never an issue.
    Unfortunately, passenger cock up meant that sidecar ploughed into tyre wall on a sharp left hander, and he leaned right...! So only made a 1.6 lap in first practice. Nevertheless, I met so many interesting people there and got loads of device on everything from jet sizes on AvGas fuel, to one way valves in the engine breather.
    Tried 21T gear sprocket with 41T Rear wheel, but when I get the jet sizes/needles sorted, I think it may be n=better with 21T/38T. We'll see...
     
  18. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie VIP MEMBER

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
  19. jan nelder

    jan nelder

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018

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