Norton wins again and again

Here's some of the Croft results. Looking at the competition its pretty amazing how well the Nortons did. The SBR apprears to be a very well developed and funded team with a top rider and frequent rebuilds. I would like to know more about whats in it, the ports & stroke etc. It did not run for points in the 7a class because it was outside the rules on the frame, fuel, breaks and forks. Never the less an incredible bike and it beat almost everything.

The Dave Watson bike ran within 1/2 second behind the SBRs best time so they were actually pretty close. The Watson bike is on a tight budget and a worn out rear tire slowed them down at the end. It was within the rules and has been basically racing with the same parts for years which is a pretty amazing feat. I pay close attention to this bike because I'm involved with the parts being used. Looking at the classes - if I'm reading it right it appears that saturday the SRB got to the finish line 1st but Gary got the 1st place points for his class and Gary won in his class on Sunday while the SBR may have been gridded in another race.

Look at the competition they were up against and the lap times on the far right.

It [the SBR] was not scoring points as it was not with in crmc rule ( chassis, Forks, Brakes, And fuel ) it looked like to me have a very fast and young talent rider . Best Gary did on my commando was two forths winning its class and breaking his own lap record about half a second short of the sbr norton pace. We didn't do the last couple of races - back tyre was well past it best, losing grip and getting slower so call it a day - no budget for a new tyre

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Dave Watson

Hi Jim, thanks for posting the results.
Not sure how you qualify "well funded" and " many rebuilds' , they have come half way around the world and it has taken many years of hard graft to get that SBR Norton to the stage it is at now.
I know for a fact they are not well funded as you say, it took two years of planning and fund raising to get it to the UK.
A couple of years ago they were going to take it to the States, I made enquiries on their behalf regarding fuel types and availibilty, that trip was canned for all different reasons and they waited and then took it to the UK this year.
I understand your need to see your parts do well, I can vouch for that as I run them in my race motor as one of many, the short stroke motor in the SBR Norton is a lot of Kiwi craft mans ship and development. Head development is done here in my home city and I have dealings with the same guys through racing.
Just thought there needed to be no comparisons on engine parts is all.
Regards Mike

Brooking 850 said:

I did ask owner/engine builder for the specs to post for you, he may do once he gets back from the UK.
Regards Mike

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Love to see the details, Mike, if possible. I simply enjoy seeing the innovation that people put into new development on our old war horse Nortons. And the SBR guys obviously do it as a labor of love.

Ken

....( chassis, Forks, Brakes, And fuel ).....

Well, we know the fuel was not to CRMC rules. Looking at Photos it is not so clear about the rest, chassis? well it looks like a Seeley MkII copy, but mayber there are differences in detail.

Forks, well they look later, and they look to be of larger stanchion diameter, probably 38mm, but I am sure the 35mm Maxton Ceriani copy I use is similar in performance.
Brakes, well this infers they are floaters, photos are inconclusive, and as they are using AP Lockheed 2 piston calipers, there is not much else in the rules.

Would be interesting to know the details.

In all fairness to Gary, who has had overall wins on the bike in the past, he hasn't been on it for a season or two and in the meantime the others have moved forward, and clearly Daves budget is tight (Like mine!)

SBR frame, From the F1 Engineering (NZ) website
"....SBR750 Norton Chassis. This machine originally had a Seeley Replica chassis build by Ray Brigham. The frame rake was modified during the period Paul Dobbs was racing it but Paul's full on riding style left it in a pretty second hand state. In 2013 we completed a direct copy of this frame in chrome moly however with improved Ducati style axle adjusters. The improvement of the lighter , stronger chrome moly frame was immediately obvious with the rear shocks needing stiffer springs and re valving to suit and the lap times dropping ....... 17mm axle. The swingarm is made to suit a 3.5" rim ...."

I suspect the original framemaker was Ray Breingan (not Brigham) , of whom the internet says - "Long history of frame building in the UK incl doing the majority of the Drixton Aermacchi frames for Syd Lawton. Known to have built several frames back here in NZ."

ntst8 said:

SBR frame, From the F1 Engineering (NZ) website
"....SBR750 Norton Chassis. This machine originally had a Seeley Replica chassis build by Ray Brigham. The frame rake was modified during the period Paul Dobbs was racing it but Paul's full on riding style left it in a pretty second hand state. In 2013 we completed a direct copy of this frame in chrome moly however with improved Ducati style axle adjusters. The improvement of the lighter , stronger chrome moly frame was immediately obvious with the rear shocks needing stiffer springs and re valving to suit and the lap times dropping ....... 17mm axle. The swingarm is made to suit a 3.5" rim ...."

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Thanks for that. Looking photos of the races themselves it looks like they took the opportunity to beef up the swinging arm mounting area with larger braces. Logical bearing in mind the comments above, but it may be what Dave Watson is referring to. His frame is a more faithful MkII rep, though as I have said (and really it seems no one cares), Seeley Commando's run in the period were in MkIII frames, I never did see one in a MkII back then, which were more commonly used on G50s.

Brooking

When I mentioned "well funded" and "many rebuilds". I meant that as a compliment. The SBR gang has obviously done a great job and along with the Gary Thwaites/Dave Watson team the Norton flag is up front and both bikes are very competitive against a number of Ducatis, tridents and 4 cylinder jap bikes. As Herb Becker once told me - funding is a concern on every level of racing and I can remember how desperate I was for cash when I was racing. We are lucky to have these two teams doing so well and there are other Norton racers who are also helping out such as Steve A, Chris Tyler, Michael H, Stan Keys (US Bears points leader) and others too many to mention. In Sunday qualifying Richard Molnar had the 6th fastest time on a 500 Manx in 17a class against 43 riders on triples, two strokes, 1000cc+ 4 cylinders etc. Flick on the SBR was 2nd fastest against George on a Suz 1100

Thanks Jim, not sure I can supply a lot nore info on actual bike specs, just to say they do comply with NZCMRR rules here in NZ.
Regards Mike

Brooking 850 said:

Thanks Jim, not sure I can supply a lot nore info on actual bike specs, just to say they do comply with NZCMRR rules here in NZ.
Regards Mike

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NZCMRR rules would appear to allow more 'development' than CRMC and probably AHMRA etc.

However, CRMC allows too much for some of us! For example my bike has the rarity of an actual 1975 Rickman frame, same spec as a 1972 so perfectly eligible, and a 2013 ish round tube swinging arm made to the same design as the original. But box section could be used, even if never used on a Rickman in the period! The bike is almost unique in Rickman racers at the moment by retaining oil in the frame. I have respected the originality where I can, because I was there, on this frame!

Though on the other hand I can run a short stroke within the pre '73 rules, and I do, even though they are really a '73 design, and 'possibly' a '74 reality, though only in a Norton made frame!

We have to accept some things as in the 'spirit'. I would love to have racing like it was in the '70s, but at 63 I ain't doing no push starts! Young Flick (or even George, Gary and Lee) would probably gain another half a lap on me!

Oh!, and if anyone wants to see an old fart riding a Rickman Norton at more races, send cash, my retirement is not 'well funded'.....

SteveA said:

gripper said:

So although it has Norton on the tank, Are there actually any Norton bits in it?............. Errrrr NO

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Well, I understand the comment, however they aren't the only ones. If you stipulated 40 year old Norton parts there would be no Commando based bikes racing, or Manx Nortons, or pretty much anything classic.

We have to be realistic. It costs £1000s to build any engine, and much more if you have to rebuild it every week. My friend Alan rode with an original Norton crank, at Pembrey this year he did cartwheels at 80mph after it locked solid exiting a fast bend due to crank breakage, not a nice thing for a 61 year old. Not many of us would go racing if that was a regular occurance. Modern race parts allow more peace of mind as well as more performance.

As it happens the best Norton race parts, actually look very much like the original parts, which on some bikes they don't!

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My Seeley 850 sat unraced for 20 years after I first built it because I looked at the standard crank. I never believed in it and these days I only ever ride on short circuits where the crashes are not so big, if the crank fails. But for that risk, a ride at Phillip Island might be extremely pleasant. I don't know how guys can ride at Daytona, knowing that suspect crank is in their motor.

This is what I'm talking about. Gary passing a Duc 1100 on the outside of a turn.

Sweet; thanks Jim.

It would be interesting to know from what race this photo comes. Number 42 is Alex Sinclair, no mean rider and a very highly rated Classic competitor.
If it was from the first race, then the situation is most likely to be as stated, but if it was from the second race........

Obviously the SBR team have developed a very competitive package, and much of the expressed interest is directed at the engine. I sincerely hope that whatever they've done will not be loosely spread around for all and sundry to benefit from.

NewZealanders have a great reputation for doing this kind of development work, and are still doing it, not only the SBR team but there are also others who are working on different and fascinating projects. I consider myself favoured to be privvy to some of this work (not the SBR) and wild horses would not drag the details from me.
If and when the team owners see fit to release details, that is their perogative, and I would expect any self respecting Kiwi to be similarly minded.

SteveA, as an alternative to your suggestion that the SBR team revamp their motorcycle to meet UK/USA regs and then come back again to race, why not have it the other way and racers from the Northern hemisphere take a racing vacation in NZ. I'm sure the Kiwi's would welcome all with open arms

'Obviously the SBR team have developed a very competitive package, and much of the expressed interest is directed at the engine. I sincerely hope that whatever they've done will not be loosely spread around for all and sundry to benefit from.'

I never take that approach towards other guys who ride commando-based bike in road races. When I race, if I can help anyone else go better, I help them willingly.
One step forward on any Norton, is one step forward for the rest of us. I am more faithful to the brand than I am interested in keeping secrets. Even if they use everything I have ever done to my bike and get theirs' going super-quick - if they race against me, they still have to out-ride me and if they can do that, they deserve to win.

The Southern Classic historic motorcycle road races are held at Phillip Island each Australia Day weekend. Usually on about the 29th January. See you there ?

Snotzo said:

SteveA, as an alternative to your suggestion that the SBR team revamp their motorcycle to meet UK/USA regs and then come back again to race, why not have it the other way and racers from the Northern hemisphere take a racing vacation in NZ. I'm sure the Kiwi's would welcome all with open arms

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I am sure you are right, and yes of course, but I think this has happened in the past. Steve Maney for one used to compete in events in both Australia and NZ. Unfortunately culmiting in some serious injuries which I think pretty muche ended his racing carreer.

This is the first time I have seen the trip north.

The reason I suggest the alignment with local regs is because I am sure they would still bring very competitive packages, probably still winning packages, with no possible discussion after the event.

Snotzo said:

It would be interesting to know from what race this photo comes. Number 42 is Alex Sinclair, no mean rider and a very highly rated Classic competitor.
If it was from the first race, then the situation is most likely to be as stated, but if it was from the second race........

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Yes it would be interesting. I have a lot of respect for young Alex' abilities, he is getting a lot of track time these days on a wide range of bikes, anything from 125 to 1100, including the odd MV Agusta.

I would also be interested to know what lap of the race it was taken on!

You will note that Alex is using 17" Pirelli supersport tyres! (just discernable from the tread pattern) and Gary is on a classic race Avon 18". 17" rims are permitted in the later age category Alex is riding in.

I have spoken to other riders using these 17" tyres, which are intended for use with tyre warmers (banned in classic racing). They say that they have to take at least the first two laps very carefully until the heat gets into them, but that over a race distance there is sufficient gain in subsequent laps to recover time lost and get ahead!

You can see thet Gary has a bit more lean angle - Compare the centerline angles of the ft tires, the fork leg angles, the elbows, and the proximity of the brake lever to the ground. Alex's knee is hanging out further while Garys is tucked in a bit.

jseng1 said:

You can see thet Gary has a bit more lean angle - Compare the centerline angles of the ft tires, the fork leg angles, the elbows, and the proximity of the brake lever to the ground. Alex's knee is hanging out further while Garys is tucked in a bit.

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Sure Jim, but what does that mean? As far as I know we are seeing Gary going around the long way, fully prepared to accept that.

I have watched and followed Alex on track, he never seems as if he is trying, but all the time he is pulling away from you, he is very relaxed on a bike, rarely gets flat on the tank. And young, skinny and rather long legged for his height, so yes indeed those knees go way out.

Gary on the other hand always looks like he is ragging the arse off the thing, often with a shower of sparks! Generally fun to watch.

There are different ways to go fast.

Look at the results and the lap times below and compare Gary's Norton times and placing against Alex's Duc 1100. Gary was a little faster and he beat him. Maybe Alex beat Gary in another race - I don't know. In any case it seems you should be cheering for a Norton over a Duc (though I admit - I love Ducs).



I remember racing against faster bikes and the only way to beat them was to outride them in the turns - that means pushing the tires into a slide and holding it there and possibly dragging metal if necessary - it gets hairy but that's racing. If your competitor can't do that then you've got him beat. If he can and he has a faster bike - then you're never going to catch him.