Norton V4 1200 trailer

http://www.cyclenews.com/2016/08/articl ... norton-v4/

The engine has been developed in conjunction with the former Vepro design consultancy in nearby Coalville, 10 miles away from the Norton factory at Donington Hall. Founded in 1999 by Triumph’s former Head of Engine and Transmission Design, Neil Wright, Vepro was acquired in October 2014 by design industry giant Ricardo to form Ricardo Motorcycles, and has been working on the new Norton projects since December of that year.
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One thing which does appear to be making itself clear is Mr garners marketing strategy. Create a high profile by bringing Norton back to the TT then sell a motorcycle 'developed' from the racer at significantly high cost enough to deter investor owners from using them too much for fear of losing value. He's already done this with the domiracer. Which will maximise profit as R and D costs can be minimised unfortunately to the disadvantage of the buyer as proven by reports from 961 owners. This did backfire somewhat as I do not think Mr Garner expected themt to get used as much as they have. he is on a much safer bet with a £28,000 motorcycle. The annual mileage of the V4 wahtever engine it has in it will be absolutely minimal if any so minimising warranty claims IMHO.
 
Fixodent. said:
One thing which does appear to be making itself clear is Mr garners marketing strategy. Create a high profile by bringing Norton back to the TT then sell a motorcycle 'developed' from the racer at significantly high cost enough to deter investor owners from using them too much for fear of losing value. He's already done this with the domiracer. Which will maximise profit as R and D costs can be minimised unfortunately to the disadvantage of the buyer as proven by reports from 961 owners.
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Hmm. I can agree with this to some extent since, as a new owner, my first instinct was to be extremely careful with my investment. Like it was a valuable, delicate piece of china. I was especially "fearful" since I expected to be on my own for maintenance and possibly minor repairs. Maybe a better term is owner intimidation. But I truly doubt anyone (not even Garner) would develop a strategy as you describe it based on this "fear". Honestly, if my circumstances were different to the point that a huge chunk of money did not simply fall into my lap I would probably have shopped for something pre-owned with proven track record of reliability. For me (and most of us I dare say) it is a truly emotional thing with this brand. Very few people can afford to chase the dream, but if they can they just do. :mrgreen:

As it stands, this afternoon is going to be unusually mild with temperatures near 60° F. I have two choices for a nice long ride today. And I am NOT taking the Speed Triple! :D
 
Well the whole Ricardo Motorcycles thing sounds promising.
I hope the V4 lump that is eventually developed will have some unique elements to it so that it doesn't get branded as Norton's Aprilia wannabe motor.

My interest in the V4 project is strictly one of curiosity since 28,000 pounds is well beyond my means.
If the project is successful it will be another milestone for Norton UK on it's journey back from the dead.
That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
 
Fast Eddie said:
.....The low volumes will reduce manufacturing engineering costs though I would suggest. I would in fact presume that Ricardo will actually manufacture the engines, or at least core components, as that's what they specialise in. Thus saving millions for Norton with regards to tooling and set up etc.

Shouldn't we have a dedicated 1200 thread page now / soon...?
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I do not understand the reasoning for the above comments. As scale of economies means the more you make the cheaper parts become. As tooling costs (Y) divided by number of components made (X) means Y decreases as X gets bigger. And sombody along the way is going to have to pay for the tooling costs, if it is a brand new engine and not an aprillia copy, then that will be Norton well actually it will ultimatly be the consumer so I do not see any saving to be made - unless the entire engine is to be CNC'd from billets ok for a one off but not a production engine. Do Ricardo manufacture in house or are they just consultants/project managers?
 
Fixodent. said:
Fast Eddie said:
.....The low volumes will reduce manufacturing engineering costs though I would suggest. I would in fact presume that Ricardo will actually manufacture the engines, or at least core components, as that's what they specialise in. Thus saving millions for Norton with regards to tooling and set up etc.

Shouldn't we have a dedicated 1200 thread page now / soon...?
Click to expand...

I do not understand the reasoning for the above comments. As scale of economies means the more you make the cheaper parts become. As tooling costs (Y) divided by number of components made (X) means Y decreases as X gets bigger. And sombody along the way is going to have to pay for the tooling costs, if it is a brand new engine and not an aprillia copy, then that will be Norton well actually it will ultimatly be the consumer so I do not see any saving to be made - unless the entire engine is to be CNC'd from billets ok for a one off but not a production engine. Do Ricardo manufacture in house or are they just consultants/project managers?
Click to expand...

Because, in the above hypothesis, Ricardo will manufactur engines, or at least, core components, on their existing, highly flexible machinery, hence Norton will not hav to buy any. Hopefully its clearer now you've seen the video?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Fixodent. said:
Fast Eddie said:
.....The low volumes will reduce manufacturing engineering costs though I would suggest. I would in fact presume that Ricardo will actually manufacture the engines, or at least core components, as that's what they specialise in. Thus saving millions for Norton with regards to tooling and set up etc.

Shouldn't we have a dedicated 1200 thread page now / soon...?
Click to expand...

I do not understand the reasoning for the above comments. As scale of economies means the more you make the cheaper parts become. As tooling costs (Y) divided by number of components made (X) means Y decreases as X gets bigger. And sombody along the way is going to have to pay for the tooling costs, if it is a brand new engine and not an aprillia copy, then that will be Norton well actually it will ultimatly be the consumer so I do not see any saving to be made - unless the entire engine is to be CNC'd from billets ok for a one off but not a production engine. Do Ricardo manufacture in house or are they just consultants/project managers?
Click to expand...

Because, in the above hypothesis, Ricardo will manufactur engines, or at least, core components, on their existing, highly flexible machinery, hence Norton will not hav to buy any. Hopefully its clearer now you've seen the video?
Click to expand...

Norton will be paying for part of Ricardo's initial investment, plus a percentage, in their existing machine tools for any parts made in addition to purpose made cores and or dies for the cast components - crankcases, cylinders, cylinder head etc will have to be paid for as Ricardo will not have these on their shelves being bespoke items. If Ricardo are only making the 'core components' (not sure what you mean), then Norton or other manufacturers will be having to produce the 'non-core'? components at a cost inc. tooling etc - nothing is free. Ultimately it depends how many V4's Norton plan to make wether to invest in their own tooling or depend on a third party if they are still strapped for cash then the third party is the only option but they will pay through the nose. Cheapest option is to go with the Aprillia engine and have Norton engine cases cast up. Job done!
 
Fixodent. said:
Norton will be paying for part of Ricardo's initial investment, plus a percentage, in their existing machine tools for any parts made in addition to purpose made cores and or dies for the cast components - crankcases, cylinders, cylinder head etc will have to be paid for as Ricardo will not have these on their shelves being bespoke items. If Ricardo are only making the 'core components' (not sure what you mean), then Norton or other manufacturers will be having to produce the 'non-core'? components at a cost inc. tooling etc - nothing is free. Ultimately it depends how many V4's Norton plan to make wether to invest in their own tooling or depend on a third party if they are still strapped for cash then the third party is the only option but they will pay through the nose. Cheapest option is to go with the Aprillia engine and have Norton engine cases cast up. Job done!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how else I can try and explain this, I'm not a wordsmith, but I'll have one last try:

'Tooling up' to produce a new engine is expensive. Tooling up to produce a high volume engine is even more expensive! Remember, by 'tooling' in this context we mean heavy cutting and turning and measuring and etc equipment capable of very tight tolerances. We are not talking about torque wrenches and socket sets.

Yes, you are right to point out that, with a high volume product 'economies of scale' work to your benefit in terms of the production costs. But that does not help you with your tooling costs, you still have to find the money (lots of it) up front to pay for tooling.

'Core components' in industry parlance are "the 5 'C's" which are Crank case, Crank shaft, Cylinder head, Camshaft and Con rods.

The most difficult of these in a motorcycle engine would be the Cylinder heads and Crank cases. Which, as you say, would most likely need moulds and cores making, but these are not the most expensive items on the tooling shopping list relatively speaking. And, depending on volume, they may not be needed as there are 'lost wax' and other 'rapid prototyping' methods that could be used for very low volumes. Yes they will increase the piece price cost, but they will reduce the investment costs. The ideal balance of which is based largely on volume.

Very simplistically, the higher the volume, the more dedicated (single operation) the machinery is required to be in order to achieve high volume / low cost production. The lower the volume, the more flexible (multi operation / quick change over) the machinery is required to be, so that it can be used for multiple operations and other products as well. Buying dedicated machinery for low volume would result in astronomical sales prices (as in it would make the entire project non-viable).

So, basically, to be commercially viable, low volume needs be made on highly flexible machinery. RICADO ALREADY HAVE such machinery. In fact, it is precisely what they specialise in doing. So Norton will not have to invest in large amounts of very expensive equipment. Some investment will be required of course, but nothing like the same magnitude as would be if buying everything, from scratch / doing it alone.

I hope that makes sense, cos I can't think of any different way to explain it?!

Regarding your point that they should use an Aprilia motor and stick Norton badges on it as the cheapest option... I'm sure you are right, but this is a topic that created huge emotional responses in the past when Norton used these motors in their race bikes, I think this would be re-ignited and magnified in the context of customer bikes. I would respectfully suggest it is a related, but different point and is a debate better served separately.
 
Certainly Garner had options when deciding on a power plant for the new 1200.
There is of course a rebadged Aprilia V4 lump.
Then again there is the V4 mill that Rotax offered to Aprilia back in 2006-7 before Aprilia ultimately deciding to design their own in-house V4.
I'm sure that the Rotax V4 is still on the shelf back at Rotax facility.
This would be a thoroughly engineered, virtually ready for production V4, with Rotax quality.
 
The chrome finish is a bit "in your face", but the bike is technically very impressive.
It's the next big step in Norton's rebirth.
Great stuff!

Thanks for posting.
 
I'm all for shiny silver bikes with ample power.
This particular one might cause temporary blindness for approaching drivers on sunny days, but it is an impressive accomplishment.
Seems Garner put the Government funds to good use.
I do hope he hasn't forgotten the 961. Maybe this new bike will keep the company going. It might be surprising just how many people will pay up for such a bike.
Weight might be an issue for some. As Garner says, this is a "specifications" type bike.
People looking to buy this bike will likely also look at the 215 hpDucati 1299 Superleggera. The Superleggera is listed at 339 lbs dry, the Norton v4 at 445.



They refer to it as "the highest spec British Superbike ever"
I'm sure it is, but I'm thinking that has got to be a pretty short list!

Glen
 
The listed dry weight of the Norton V4 is 179 KG Dry = 393.8 lbs. AND people have been able to buy the Superleggra all along . They didn't have to wait until now. They will buy the Norton because it is a Norton .
 
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