Norton factory rod prep and problems....

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Messages
639
I took some photos of Norton rods, two sets from 850 Commandos and one set out of a 1961 Manxman, all rods from 89mm stroke engines that are interchangeable.

It is common to hear people talk about how polishing is a no-no, as it removes the compressed surface that the forging process creates, well the factory does this for you anyway, and they often do a poor job of it. The early connecting rod has much less prep work done to it than was done on rods starting later in 1962.

If you look at the two sets of 850 Commando rods you can see some scary things though. It looks as though the factory first removed the forging parting line with an abrasive technique which went sideways, then they went back and hit it again going lengthways. The Problem is that in a LOT of the rods I have looked at they leave the sideways scratches and gouges in many places on the rod beam where it is a serious stress riser. On some rods you will see horizontal marks down in the radius before the big-end bolt, and in other cases you will find them right at the small radius blending into the rod eye, neither a very good place to have a crack starting. On the one set of dirtier rods you can see nicks the entire length of the rod on the corner of the beam before it wraps around to the rod side.

The cleaner set of rods is from a 850 E-start, one of which is a "D" rod. But if I ever saw a rod fail in a Commando with reasonable mileage on it, I would think first of the poor finish on these rod beams. They certainly need some careful finishing to remove these factory marks, and finishing up with competent shot-peening would not be a bad idea either. It looks like as long as you are a competent and smart mechanic, it would not be hard for you to improve the reliability of these rods with a bit of hand-work.

As they stand, the early rough-forged beam might be just as or more reliable than the later rod with their poorly done polish jobs.....



Norton factory rod prep and problems....

Norton factory rod prep and problems....
 
For a street application with a completely stock setup do expect it to really cause a problem?
 
Respect your observation, but with 40 years and 50,000 miles with no rod problem I'm not going to start worrying. :)
 
Only the Z plates more over built than any of the Norton rods. Rods don't fail in the crude finished area pointed out, when something else breaks first that then affects the rod the rods break about 1/3 the way down from the top. Bolts seats must be manicured in some cases is all. Shot Peen or Ball burnish if wanting to add some to their robustness. Its unnerving not to grind file sand and polish out sideways nicks then shot peen for some extra life, below red zone.
 
hobot said:
Only the Z plates more over built than any of the Norton rods. Rods don't fail in the crude finished area pointed out, when something else breaks first that then affects the rod the rods break about 1/3 the way down from the top. Bolts seats must be manicured in some cases is all. Shot Peen or Ball burnish if wanting to add some to their robustness. Its unnerving not to grind file sand and polish out sideways nicks then shot peen for some extra life, below red zone.

I respect what you are stating, and do not disagree with you.
The other reason why an engine will put “a foot out of bed” is a big end seizure due to lack of oil, I once saw a 750 Commando that had done that to both it’s rods :!:
 
illf8ed said:
Respect your observation, but with 40 years and 50,000 miles with no rod problem I'm not going to start worrying. :)

Well - you should, aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit so every aluminium rod has an in-build load cycle (and amplitude) counter. :twisted:


Tim
 
beng said:
It is common to hear people talk about how polishing is a no-no, as it removes the compressed surface that the forging process creates,...

Have a look on how modern racing con-rods are manufactured: The forged blank has a few mm of machining tolerance everywhere and this is milled off completely - so the forged surfaces are not seen on the parts anymore. In order to get some compression stress back into the surface and reduce surface deviations aka crack starters the machined parts are then shot peened. Shot peening these old Norton rods is not the worst idea one could come up with IMHO (as long as the functional surfaces are covered plus it might be worth having a look at the oil drilling afterwards).


Tim
 
Tintin said:
illf8ed said:
Respect your observation, but with 40 years and 50,000 miles with no rod problem I'm not going to start worrying. :)

Well - you should, aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit so every aluminium rod has an in-build load cycle (and amplitude) counter. :twisted:


Tim


Don't you mean to say "aluminum does have a fatigue limit"?

I recall that only steel "doesn't have a fatigue limit" below a certain stress magnitude level.
 
Tintin said:
beng said:
It is common to hear people talk about how polishing is a no-no, as it removes the compressed surface that the forging process creates,...

Have a look on how modern racing con-rods are manufactured: The forged blank has a few mm of machining tolerance everywhere and this is milled off completely - so the forged surfaces are not seen on the parts anymore. In order to get some compression stress back into the surface and reduce surface deviations aka crack starters the machined parts are then shot peened. Shot peening these old Norton rods is not the worst idea one could come up with IMHO (as long as the functional surfaces are covered plus it might be worth having a look at the oil drilling afterwards).


Tim


I wonder if this is why powdered metal technology is so desireable. Reduces machining time while minimizing removal of compressive stresses from the part surfaces which are apparently desireable.
 
I respect what you are stating, and do not disagree with you.
The other reason why an engine will put “a foot out of bed” is a big end seizure due to lack of oil, I once saw a 750 Commando that had done that to both it’s rods :!:[/quote

Thanks for proving my point, which is Norton rods are never a problem even with some scary scars on them unfinished *As Something Else* ALWAYS lets go First such as oil flow or bad bolt or weak piston or valve float clash or spark timing missfire or diesel added at hi lugging loads or bearings give up or cases crack from crank shaft whip, Because Norton Rods are so over built they do not suffer the Al fatque stress cycle limit within our known life times to the max an un blown race engine under a liter can dish out below 8000 rpm a long time. Period, end of story, throw in the ole towel - wrap it up and go home and forgetaboutit.


There are better rods for the weight but not for the expense and life of even abnormal Norton needs.

Best I had done to Ms Peels was smooth and polish them, then cryogenic tempered/heat relieved to compact and distress metal matrix then shot peened to compact compress stress the glass like polish outter layer.

I'm still awaiting a rod failure tale that didn't start with a long list of options first.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Don't you mean to say "aluminum does have a fatigue limit"?

No, I mean it like I wrote it - just think about the term "limit" in this context: What you mean is a "lifing limit" I'd say but it basically means the same.

Steel - as you wrote - has a fatigue limit, means if you stay below a certain stress level it will not fail over time. Aluminium will fail at one point regardless of the stress level - hence there is no fatigue limit which one can "stay under".



Tim
 
Tintin said:
Dances with Shrapnel said:
Don't you mean to say "aluminum does have a fatigue limit"?

No, I mean it like I wrote it - just think about the term "limit" in this context: What you mean is a "lifing limit" I'd say but it basically means the same.

Steel - as you wrote - has a fatigue limit, means if you stay below a certain stress level it will not fail over time. Aluminium will fail at one point regardless of the stress level - hence there is no fatigue limit which one can "stay under".



Tim

I see, we see.
 
Dances with Shrapnel said:
I wonder if this is why powdered metal technology is so desireable. Reduces machining time while minimizing removal of compressive stresses from the part surfaces which are apparently desireable.

Hm, I'd say that compression stresses are desirable on the surface as they reduce the likelyhood of crack starters which are usually due to tensile stresses.



Tim
 
Tintin said:
illf8ed said:
Respect your observation, but with 40 years and 50,000 miles with no rod problem I'm not going to start worrying. :)

Well - you should, aluminium doesn't have a fatigue limit so every aluminium rod has an in-build load cycle (and amplitude) counter. :twisted:


Tim

I just ride em until something breaks then fix it. So far in 40 years and 50,000 miles the rods haven't given any problem. English please :)
 
illf8ed said:
So far in 40 years and 50,000 miles the rods haven't given any problem. English please :)

Tick tack tick tack tick tack tick tack tick tack tick tack tick ..... :mrgreen:

SCNR


Tim
 
I never expected anyone to tear down their running bike to fiddle with the rods, but someday before I use the Commando rods that I took the photo of, I will certainly work them over so they do not have the stress risers they do now.

It will be little trouble for me and it is an old and accepted part of putting an engine together that you care about.

It was interesting to see the different ways the factory prepped their rods, in different years, and on different shifts apparently....

Maybe someone has some other interesting photos of factory rods?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top