More Triumph trouble for Garner...

worntorn said:
The biggest draw for me re the Triumph vs the Norton is that Triumph already knows how to build durable, high performing motorcycles and have been doing this large scale for some time now.
Also there is a big dealer network and proper parts supply. Hinckley Triumph motorcycles tend to work very well, even new models right out of the box. Norton hasn't done so well on this score unfortunately, and on top of that the support has been awful for many. That appears to be changing for the better, but a good reputation is a slow thing to build.

On appearance, looking closely at the photos and objective in that I like them both, they are on par( ThruxtonR).That is saying a lot for the Triumph as/before this the 961 was top of the heap for me.


Glen
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I would have to agree with you on your first statements, but as far as appearance, unless the Triumphs look better in person, I believe Norton is in a class by itself!
 
I really liked Stuarts response on Twitter. I wont ruin it for you so look it up by going to twitter then searching for @norton_ceo . Well done! I love my Norton. I would feel like I'm cheating on my Norton if I rode that Triumph. Norton should be flattered that Triumph tried to make their new model look very much like the 961. I would be. It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
 
richard-7 said:
I really liked Stuarts response on Twitter. I wont ruin it for you so look it up by going to twitter then searching for @norton_ceo . Well done! I love my Norton. I would feel like I'm cheating on my Norton if I rode that Triumph. Norton should be flattered that Triumph tried to make their new model look very much like the 961. I would be. It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
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How about sharing it for all the luddites out there who don't do twit - er (like me)??
 
Fast Eddie said:
richard-7 said:
I really liked Stuarts response on Twitter. I wont ruin it for you so look it up by going to twitter then searching for @norton_ceo . Well done! I love my Norton. I would feel like I'm cheating on my Norton if I rode that Triumph. Norton should be flattered that Triumph tried to make their new model look very much like the 961. I would be. It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
Click to expand...

How about sharing it for all the luddites out there who don't do twit - er (like me)??
Click to expand...


QUOTE by Stuart Garner on twitter regarding the new Triumph line up.
"two great brands, very different propositions, prices and residuals. Both have their place. Personally happy Brit bikes are back!"
 
My thoughts:

If you subliminally ignore the big radiator on the front of the new T120 and Thrux, the new styling works well. They did a beautiful job on the new primary, and alternator engine covers. Very close to the shapes of the Meriden Bonnies, with emblems attached. Very cool!

New instruments, Ride By Wire (RBW), WTF???? Yes RBW on a classic. We’ll have to see how all that works out. But Triumph are touting a “Second Gen EFI” to go with the RBW.

After viewing the YouTube video of the 1200 release, I think the Hinckley boys have a winner if the weight is kept to a minimum, and they get good HP numbers from the motor. They haven’t released those specs yet.

I don’t so much think that the 1200 is a problem for Garner or Norton, as much as a validation that the retro segment of the bike market is here to stay, and is lucrative enough to justify Triumph investing considerable funds to redesign the Bonneville line. For quite a few years the Bonneville was the best-selling bike in the Hinckley lineup.

The real winners in this, us the folks who buy retros, and modern classics.
 
I think we have to remember they are not classics. They are retro that echo the style if classics. Very clever in my opinion as I think it works well.
Ducati tried it and it didn't work, Moto Guzzi seem to be doing ok but don't seem to have modern handling and performance.
I love the 961 and the Thruxton, especially the R model.
To get what we want out of a motorcycle we need modern electrics, fueling, handling and performance. Let's face it losing sight if this is one of the reasons we lost the industry in the first place.
Where do upside down forks fit in with classic? Look a treat on both the 961 and R.
Modern fueling and water Cooling is a must I guess if we want performance, reliability and economy.
Will have to see what they look like in real life.
I think we are lucky to have two iconic manufacturers producing such stunning bikes.
Triumph has proved it is here for the long haul.
I hope Norton will be the same.

I have a 74 850 mk11 and would gladly have the two in my garage as well.
 
Some great perspective here from intelligent riders, could not have said it better myself (so I will not)

I am going to ride my 961 to the Triumph dealer this weekend though, and maybe put down a deposit on a new Triumph
 
The bike is still too heavy and why do they persist with carb looking injectors?
 
speirmoor said:
The bike is still too heavy and why do they persist with carb looking injectors?
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Actually, we don’t know how heavy they are yet. Triumph have not released that info yet.

But your question about the faux carbs is one I have asked since they introduced the EFI Bonnie.
My Bonnie is a carb version – 2006. I personally think fake carbs is one step over the line. The owner knows that they are dressed up throttle bodies. So what, does the owner want to trick others into thinking that his bike is a vintage Bonnie with amals? Ridiculous! I would prefer simple throttle bodies with modern port injectors. The engine’s appearance, and frame scream RETRO/CLAASSIC. That’s enough.

I want modern HP from the motor.
 
richard-7 said:
It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
Click to expand...

Given the rather checkered reliability /parts supply/delivery/warranty support history of the 961to date, and the rock solid reputation of Bloor's fleet, that sounds a tiny bit pretentious and maybe off the mark.
But then I have an 05 955i Daytona that impresses the hell out of me every time I get on, so I guess I see Triumph differently than you do. After riding it, I don't have to drain oil out of the air box, reattach starter ring gears, write my own manuals or any such nonsense and there are 161 reliable, silky smooth horses on tap.

Triumph also build the Sprint triple that the German publication Motorrad crowned overall reliability winner ahead of 12 other big name machines incuding the Honda VFR and the BMW K1200. The test was for 50,000 kms and the Triumph had zero reliability issues over that distance, plus the engine showed the lowest amount of overall wear (virtually as new) when completely disassembled at the end of the test. It would be great if Norton could some day compete in such a test and do well. I think we know how they would fare at present.

No doubt Garner would love to be able to produce machines which could come close to what Bloor has accomplished with Triumph. You can be sure Garner had a close eye on Triumph's success, especially with retros, before making a decision to go ahead with the 952/961 concept.

So no, I would not feel that I had "settled" in purchasing a Triumph Thruxton R, or really any new triumph, quite the opposite.

Glen
 
About the fake carbs, hell most people think the bikes are really vintage anyways so does it matter?
 
richard-7 said:
Fast Eddie said:
richard-7 said:
I really liked Stuarts response on Twitter. I wont ruin it for you so look it up by going to twitter then searching for @norton_ceo . Well done! I love my Norton. I would feel like I'm cheating on my Norton if I rode that Triumph. Norton should be flattered that Triumph tried to make their new model look very much like the 961. I would be. It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
Click to expand...

How about sharing it for all the luddites out there who don't do twit - er (like me)??
Click to expand...


QUOTE by Stuart Garner on twitter regarding the new Triumph line up.
"two great brands, very different propositions, prices and residuals. Both have their place. Personally happy Brit bikes are back!"
Click to expand...

Well, I take my hat off to Garner for making such a statement. And I think (and hope) he is right, the market is plenty big enough for both to coexist nicely, as they did for decades previously.

However we live in modern times, and coexistance (of anything) is only possible if products meet the base customer requirement of the broader market. So whilst I respect Garners philosophical words, I hope that behind the scenes, he is taking the Triumph 'threat' rather more seriously.

It is surely an undeniable fact that most buyers of a modern motorcycle expect high reliability. Even if this is not met, they expect very high levels of customer service (surveys in the automotive industry show that customers are actually NOT very negatively effected by some reliability issues provided they are not exesive / chronic and that they subsequently are treated well from a customer service perspective).

And whilst I know there will be those on here who protest strongly that their new Norton has been 100% trouble free, you are the lucky ones and very much in the minority if we measure by the amount of information 'out there' on the topic.

There must be many, many, potential buyers out there who have considered a new Norton but then shied away due to the negative stories of both of the above. I know that I have. Several times in fact. And I know that I'm not so different to many others.

Garner should look at Harley for inspiration. Yes, I know their market is different in some ways, but it is also very similar in some ways. And the size of their market is staggering in compassion (over 300,000 per year I believe). My point here is that Norton seem to have the paradigm of being able to 'get away with murder' because their core followers will still buy with 'blind faith'. And this is true. But how different could it be, how different could Nortons entire existence be if it did not have to rely only on these few, but if it could tap into just 10 or 15% of that Harley size market?

IMHO, the comments about the Nortons looks are valid, the Norton probably does out score the Triumphs in terms of looks (although I've not yet seen a new Triumph in the flesh) but that is not even close to out weighing the rest of the 'ownership experience' for me. Whilst looks are important to classic / retro buyers, for most at least, this is not enough on its own. Reliability, performance, service levels, or in other words, the whole 'ownership experience' is what matters.

So I will definitely be checking out the new Triumphs and am hoping they 'tick the box' for me, as I'm really looking for that niche to be filled in my garage. My biggest problem is hopefully going to be an inability to decide between 'High torque T120' and 'High power Thruxton' !!

For those who are wondering... My reason for waffling on about this is the hope that it helps Simon (or someone) get this message back to Garner, to up the game and stop turning away good customers!
 
Eddie,

This is all true, and from where I stand as a 961 owner, I can see a real evolution to the Norton corporate mindset.
I don't think Garner ever had the intention to throw product out there, and expect customers to take what they get.
Norton started a boutique motorcycle business I think, without fully understanding the business.
The company was funded on a relative shoe string budget initially, which was probably not a good idea in retrospect.

Now that Norton have secured load guarantees, and have access to more cash, the company recently expressed its future development goals to introduce new models. As the company grows it will have to institute the kind of quality control that we see from Triumph, and the Big 4.
In short, Norton if it survives, will look and act like the more traditional MC companies.

Right now the company is finding its way forward. There have been mistakes made, but Norton is definitely trying to improve.
Maybe not enough for some folks, but that's life.
That's why we are all lucky that there are so many MC companies producing so many different bikes.
Everyone can find something that appeals to them from one manufacturer or another.
 
worntorn said:
richard-7 said:
It`s like when you are cruising in your 300M Chrysler Hemi that looks similar to the Bentley thinking you are the cats ass and then a Bentley pulls up beside you.
Click to expand...

Given the rather checkered reliability /parts supply/delivery/warranty support history of the 961to date, and the rock solid reputation of Bloor's fleet, that sounds a tiny bit pretentious and maybe off the mark.
But then I have an 05 955i Daytona that impresses the hell out of me every time I get on, so I guess I see Triumph differently than you do. After riding it, I don't have to drain oil out of the air box, reattach starter ring gears, write my own manuals or any such nonsense and there are 161 reliable, silky smooth horses on tap.

Triumph also build the Sprint triple that the German publication Motorrad crowned overall reliability winner ahead of 12 other big name machines incuding the Honda VFR and the BMW K1200. The test was for 50,000 kms and the Triumph had zero reliability issues over that distance, plus the engine showed the lowest amount of overall wear (virtually as new) when completely disassembled at the end of the test. It would be great if Norton could some day compete in such a test and do well. I think we know how they would fare at present.

No doubt Garner would love to be able to produce machines which could come close to what Bloor has accomplished with Triumph. You can be sure Garner had a close eye on Triumph's success, especially with retros, before making a decision to go ahead with the 952/961 concept.

So no, I would not feel that I had "settled" in purchasing a Triumph Thruxton R, or really any new triumph, quite the opposite.

Glen
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I was referencing the copying of the looks only. The new Triumph looks like a copy cat of the 961 in looks. I've had my 961 next to a 2015 Thruxton and there is really no comparison in quality when they are static. And if you have a good copy which many people do, they are really are fantastic. But cable clutch and plastic VS the 961 with many more detailed CNC machined parts and carbon. I was more trying to be funny and positive being we are on a NORTON FORUM and comparing to a competitor. I would def. own a triumph, I would also own a BMW Nine-T. But I cannot put down a brand on their own special place on the net. And owning a Triumph would def. not be settling for what you really want. A huge problem with texting and forums is how difficult it is to sense a joke or being cheeky. Without the affliction in the voice, it's sometimes taken way too seriously.
 
Eddie, Most people who own any product will not go near a forum unless they are passionate or they have a problem, so you get a skewed view here. Many owners are too busy riding to be typing!

If you track by year as I do you will see that the 10,11,and 12 had far more and more serious problems. The 13s had major improvements with the 14 & 15 even better!

Customer service which was lacking has improved in a very short period of time, ditto parts availability.

But go checkout those Triumphs Eddie, that's what I'm going to do!
 
richard-7 said:
I was referencing the copying of the looks only. The new Triumph looks like a copy cat of the 961 in looks. I've had my 961 next to a 2015 Thruxton and there is really no comparison in quality when they are static. And if you have a good copy which many people do, they are really are fantastic. But cable clutch and plastic VS the 961 with many more detailed CNC machined parts and carbon. I was more trying to be funny and positive being we are on a NORTON FORUM and comparing to a competitor. I would def. own a triumph, I would also own a BMW Nine-T. But I cannot put down a brand on their own special place on the net. And owning a Triumph would def. not be settling for what you really want. A huge problem with texting and forums is how difficult it is to sense a joke or being cheeky. Without the affliction in the voice, it's sometimes taken way too seriously.
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I misread your intention, my apology.

Glen
 
BPHORSEGUY said:
Eddie, Most people who own any product will not go near a forum unless they are passionate or they have a problem, so you get a skewed view here. Many owners are too busy riding to be typing!

If you track by year as I do you will see that the 10,11,and 12 had far more and more serious problems. The 13s had major improvements with the 14 & 15 even better!

Customer service which was lacking has improved in a very short period of time, ditto parts availability.

But go checkout those Triumphs Eddie, that's what I'm going to do!
Click to expand...

That's a fair point about the skew BP.

Will be checking the Trimphs out ASAP though!
 
Ok , I have got a question for you guys. I was just at the Triumph Dealer and I was told the Thruxton R will be 15.5 USD at least . Standard Thruxton 3k less . So , I ask which bikes are made in England and which are made in Thailand ? I have been told that all the Bonnie/Thruxton moved to Thailand. Not that it matters too much , I consider the Triumph to be a mass produced machine (which is good) so price must kept lower in theory. Lets not forget that the new Thruxton is 1200cc , THAT is BIG for a British parallel twin. This should be able to compete with the Nine-t and others in that 1200cc range. JUST WAIT , they will be trying to wedge this motor into the Norton Frame because something tells me it won't handle quite as well the NORTON. The laws of physics never change .
 
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