Mk111 Project

Best wishes on your recovery. You've had more than your share of misfortune lately, but I'm really impressed with your ability to keep a positive attitude in spite of it all, and even a sense of humor. Wish I was close enough to drop by for a visit while you're in hospital.

I'm assuming this incident was from kicking over your '72, right? If nothing else, you've provided some great ammunition for us old geezers when the young and/or healthy set can't seem to understand why we would want to fit an electric starter to our Commandos.

Ken
 
I have a broken knee, it has been operated several times and I have to live with it, my current status, I can do many things but it is not as strong as I would like it, for this reason I bought an MK3, I thought that the electric assistance would be the right way to conquer my dream to have a Norton commando and use it travel the pirenees from east to west as i do yearly, unfortunatly, the electric start broke to pieces 3 times allready, so I have given up spending any more money on it, I rebuild it but with a too loose anti backfire device to prevent to use it again, so I had trouble starting my Mk3 after the rebuild, kick starting would be the only option from then on.

I learn the way to kick it, for me it worked:

1- Don't use the Choke
2- Ignition OFF
3- Tikkle the Amals
4- Kick once
5- Find the max resistance and situate the kick on top position
6- Turn on ignition
7- Give a bloody long push all the way down with al your body weight with the bike in the center stand.

I did it several times a day, after a week it started every time, now I can start it even with no stand, I learned the way...my way, so my Norton and I are friends right now.

After the first starts I discovered more things like that the ignition trigger was not centered and was "jumping" a bit so if was giving false info to the ECU, my carbs where wrongly set, things normal at this early stages of the project, what help me most was not to surrender and as many in this forum I insisted and insisted to adress each problem I could find...again and again and again until kick starting is not a problem anymore.

Today my project is not finished yet but it will be in a few weeks.

My Knee will not improve but I am sure that I will kick start my Norton with no problem, it may even be that i set the antibackfire clutch correctly if the bike one day decides to go perfect, we wil see.

This is my story I am happy to share it specially with you Torontian, being injured it easy to surrender and sell your bike but ...Is it worth to sell your dream?

Get well soon.

Best regards from Spain
 
Torontonian said:
...will stop now for my doctor exam -assesment ...

I sure hope that visit ends with the Dr saying, well, it is not NEARLY as bad as it looked at first.

Wishing the best for you, man, hang in there.
 
Hey Peter,

Sorry to hear about your injury. How did you break your left ankle? Were you standing off to the right side and using the wrong foot? Just curious, hope you recover quickly.

B
 
Have a bit more time now. Assessment was to stay in hospital care until the operation and afterwards . 2 reasons , scaffolding pins screwed into shin stick out a good 8 inches and cannot be bumped or hit. Also the pain of getting up with the blood then flooding the area has increased to an 8 on a scale of 10 , meaning wimpering noises and subsequent increase in Hydromorphone to 3 Mg. every 2 hours , up from 2 mg. 8) . The story : Thurs. 5 p.m. , 3 C. , 76 E Start Interstate Norton parked out front , polished up for the International Center motorcycle Super Show. My driver was a bit late for load up so My mind wandered to the possibility of starting it and hearing it run. Tap on , tickled new Amals , switch on , starter button , no engagement.... just spinning ( It does this when cold ) switched brain over to kickstarting attempt , 5W- 50 full synthetic oil was thick as expected so tickled again and tried reverse kick left leg action. 2 slow (cold) attempts later I tried the 3 rd. fatal one with a powerful backfire halfway through the stroke. Ow with crunchy noise. Brain said test foot with gingerness and foot went to one side. Great. Laid down on wet Sidewalk asking for help and call 911 please. Neighbors gathered to watch pool of blood form on sidewalk and reassure me. Paramedics immobilized leg , ride to Hospital , instant service into x-ray then 15 member team assembled for emergency surgery 2 A.M. More later , nurse with washtub here. :)
 
Torontonian said:
......... tried reverse kick left leg action.
well...... there's your problem right there!

seriously though, big bummer - get well soon!
 
Holy Cow Torontonian, I'm sorry to hear this, I rolled my (previously broken years ago) right ankle the other day while walking on the rocky paths that we have over here on this air base in Kuwait. It is still smarting from that recent twist/injury, it will never be what it once was, and now my previously broken left knee is having to work harder so it is screaming at me quite a bit too. Anyhow, best wishes for a speedy recovery, Cj
 
Torontoian,

Do you have a Boyer?

Timing sticking in the advanced position is a symptom of either a Dying MK111 Boyer, or not enough voltage.....

Get better soon
 
True. Ign. is Tri Spark without the test light later edition feature. Works great. Battery is new Odyssey as suggested for tight fit into tray if you trim down a few of the plastic fins at the back. Settles into 12.46 , charging good using Podtronics. Works great. I don't think it was either of those but if early models kicked back let me know I know a few early ones had issues ). More later my boss just showed up for a visit and giftbasket.
 
Torontonian said:
...Neighbors gathered to watch pool of blood form on sidewalk and reassure me...
As with all other "projects", pictures would help with our diagnostics. :roll:
Seriously, so sorry to hear about your bunged ankle. This shouldn't happen as we're heading towards the riding season! Assuming you stick exclusively to the e-start, how soon do the doctors think you'll be back up on the bike?
My wife thinks I'm crazy (probably right), but, if I ever find myself peg-leg, it'll be an e-start and side-hack.

Nathan
 
The wife and I talked about this and the agreement is that I should not be kick-starting Nortons again. This is common sense and not too hard a decision to make when you consider a third breaking event as a grim possibility. This leaves me with new decisions to make at age 57. This does not mean abandoning the Marque I love. I have a perfectly nice Show Norton that kicked back when the Starter system failed to engage and I jumped over to the Kicker. I bought the bike to avoid kicking and now I must guarantee it works well from here on in. Less late and early season driving will be a part of this. The mechanical challenge will be to ascertain why this e-start dislikes cold so much. I'm at home for the next 4 days after a week of head scratchings in Hospital , returning there Tues. for the big Titanium Plate installation ,recovery from that , then a long stretch of physio this winter. My little Mechanical theory :idea: is that cold shrinks the forward sprocket enough that the sprag cannot engage. The sprag has rollers in a cage. The rollers are flung outwards by centrifugal forces and need to be fully extended before engagement occurs. The cold temperature shrunken sprocket and sprag engagement recess face of this sprocket are now preventing full extension of the rollers. As the day warms up, clearances are opened up enough for intermittent or partial engagements. As the day progresses and air temps rise more full engagement occurs and the engine can start. Once the engine warms up by combustion heat the starter system works flawlessly. Feedback on these thoughts please. From the guy on Hydromorphone. :)
 
Torontonian said:
Ign. is Tri Spark without the test light later edition feature..........

.........but if early models kicked back let me know I know a few early ones had issues ).

My Mk.III has an early Tri-Spark and I've never experienced even the slightest of kickbacks with it, however, on a number of previous occasions you have advised members "not to bother using a strobe" but to set EI by retarding the pickup plate "until there are no kickbacks" but, as the Tri-Spark Classic Twin has a built-in anti-kickback feature, if that method is used, it could possibly allow the ignition to be set several degrees too far advanced without showing any apparent sign of it (until now)? So, how did you set the ignition timing?


Torontonian said:
My little Mechanical theory :idea: is that cold shrinks the forward sprocket enough that the sprag cannot engage. The sprag has rollers in a cage. The rollers are flung outwards by centrifugal forces and need to be fully extended before engagement occurs. The cold temperature shrunken sprocket and sprag engagement recess face of this sprocket are now preventing full extension of the rollers. As the day warms up, clearances are opened up enough for intermittent or partial engagements. As the day progresses and air temps rise more full engagement occurs and the engine can start. Once the engine warms up by combustion heat the starter system works flawlessly. Feedback on these thoughts please.

But, aren't the sprag parts likely to expand and contract together, so negating any change in ambient temperature?
From past discussions, it would seem far more likely sprags slip because of too much clearance, rather than too little, and the fact that it slips more when cold is likely to be the result of increased drag from a cold engine and thickened oil?
 
I know how much harder mine is to kick start when cold, so out of empathy I always kick-assist the starter when dead cold. I think the cold stiffness is primarily due to the thicker oil at cold temps. After the engine has run a little, I use the electric starter by itself and have had no trouble at all.... Knock wood.

Jaydee
 
As for timing this Tri-Spark Ign. ,it is as I purchased the bike this past late summer. Have never touched the unit ever. Has started well ,idles very well from the day purchased , no kickback history.. Took off the cap just to have a look-see ,anodized red ,looks spotless. The RH 10 head will be changed for a reconditioned better RH 4 head , wrapped up and awaiting. This will require the timing changed and reset on the Tri-Spark unit , which I have no previous experience with. As for sprag to sprocket engagement face clearance , I can easily put a different lighter kind of oil into the primary , this would be an inexpensive easy way to test this new theory. If it engages at the low temps. we are taking about , then we know the oil viscosity is the factor. Stock 20 W 50 Castrol is in there now to the overflow plug level. Any suggestions for oil type for this springtime experiment ? Pain settling down today for first time. :) Using less meds . Loaned a good wheelchair ,bath board and crutches by good friends. Gift basket full of chocolates and fruits. :)
 
Feel for you man, but at least it´s not summer as it was when I broke my right leg in the late 70:s, also Norton related :wink: . Remember sitting in a wheelchair outside the hospital and looking at bikes passing by on the roads outside, no fun :( . Hope you get well till the season starts!
Tommy
 
Just to clarify the event in my mind.......... is this how you were attempting to start your bike?:
Mk111 Project

I know that I could never build up enough momentum to start my bike like that.
 
Thank Mark ,Tommy ,others. I had gotten the Reverse starting down quite well and not the method as pictured at all. The bike is on the sidestand. The body is twisted round so that the left foot toes point backwards resting on the kicker.. The right hip is close to the gastank. The right arm and hand on the twistgrip to maintain stability and throttle control. The left hand can be placed on the forward portion of the seat . For the time I was waiting out the end of the season previous injury I was asking other people to start the bike for me. Entertaining and effective , some had never tried before and burst out in glee at success ! It works , try it. (Break a leg ?).
 
I can't say that I have ever seen anyone try to start a motorcycle like that, but..... whatever works for you.

I've been unlucky enough to have had pins in my ankle too so I definitely feel for you and your situation.
fortunately you have a few months to heal up before the riding season begins.
 
Yes this will heal and it is fortunate to be in winter now. Will be our first one in 22 years for us , very grateful for a mild one so far. The last 2 broke records for sustained low temps. Splits into the sidewalls on my 72 from sustained under-20 C. temps ! As for my primary oil change experiment I am thinking of trying a 10 W 30 in there instead if the hydraulic chain tensioners still function with it. Pain much less today , I can get 3 hrs. out of 2 Mg. , the idea is to wean me off or closest to that before the operation . :wink:
 
Jim Comstock pointed out that ATF is ideal for sprag lube. I have used type F ATF in my mk3 primary for several years now, no problems, in fact it improved clutch operation.
Les mentioned that ATF did not work well with his mk3 hydraulic chain tensioner, but it keeps mine functioning OK.

Maybe worth a try. Type F offers more clutch grip than other types of ATF. It might also give good grip at the sprag.

Sorry to hear about your injury.

Glen
 
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