Lansdown dampers and rear shocks

What exactly do the more expensive shocks provide that the Hagons don't? I have no problem paying the money for superior shocks but I don't know exactly what is superior about them. I assume that they have adjustable damping in addition to spring preload but I'm not sure that really does all that much for me but I don't really know. It seems to me that my current problem is spring rate and that if I do want to get the suspension to react as it should (speed bumps/ground clearance notwithstanding), a lighter set of springs may be all I need.

But I'd like to hear from those who replaced Hagons with the better shocks and get any specifics as to how the handling improved. I don't ride two up or with a lot of gear so I have no need to be able to adjust the shock for different loads.

I was thrown into flash bang slap down accerated hard knock school since '99. I can now flatly state if you have to even ask such a question then you have some real dozie's of events to occur before you understand what you might want in a shock. If you are racing its a no brainer - You will eventually want all the bells and whistles!

A logical way would be take your current or initally running rig to a track day and creep up on leans to fouling something on either side, being aware to Only let it touch down an instant, never hold it to full foul lean, ... then holding near limit of fouling creep up on fork steering sharpness till something weird happens, front jerks too much, skipping out sense, tendency to suddenly fall down or pop up or side skate to let rear swing out to low or then hi side,... then at near foul limits and fork extreme start snapping throttle at most intense least traction points, to sense if rear just skips out a tad to help steer sharp, or if wants to tip down too harsh to resist, or catch back to harsh so it hi sides, by lifting front or rear frist, or just slides wide at same lean and fork angle till regrips and continues taking more power as if the drift slide never happened so nil pilot input but hold steady till ready to change course again. Does rear sag too far down on power leans, which unloads front grip, ya might be depending on just then, does rear not sag enough so front carries more grip than the rear so controls the rear by letting it bounce free of surface, of course then tries to pass the front, if its staccato touch downs don't hi side ya first : ( Does ya ass end feel too high or too low while getting into scary cornering? Does rear seem to compress too fast in dips, does rear seem to keep bopping after hi spots? Then put on the new shocks and repeat with much more understanding to diddle them in, then change something else...

Tire quality and air pressure balance to least steering effort and least bounce back-front on air springs is vital to isolastics behavior and very first thing to do before ANYthing else. One biggie my Master Cracker taught was never ever set air pressures so front over powers rear traction. Racing around on a slow leak is a great way to learn how much good shocks & forks can save the day. On that note I don't think anything can teach better faster and safer you and bike handling quirks and limits recovery reflexes than going out some on pretty low aired tires.

The most expensive shock you can buy off the shelf costs $1800.
Here's a search list from '05

http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/main1st.htm
http://www.huskyclub.com/ohlinsnew.htm
http://www.speedandsport.com/shocks.html
http://www.speedandsport.com/flyer.html#shock1
http://www.penskeshocks.co.uk/motorcycl ... damper.htm
http://www.aftershocks-suspension.com/pages/parts.htm
http://www.imca.it/english/prodotto1.html
http://www.race-tech.com/
http://www.aftershocks-suspension.com/pages/parts.htm
http://www.bitubo.com/html/home_en.html
http://www.huskyclub.com/ohlinsnew.htm
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
http://www.wpsuspension.com/
http://www.hyperprousa.com/home.php
http://old.bemsee.net/tech/setup.html
http://www.cannonracecraft.com/


http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/dual- ... 7Aod6HAA7Q

Bot, thanks for the links and the flowery reply. I just need to have my '75 not bottom out.

MF

hobot said:

I was thrown into flash bang slap down accerated hard knock school since '99. I can now flatly state if you have to even ask such a question then you have some real dozie's of events to occur before you understand what you might want in a shock. If you are racing its a no brainer - You will eventually want all the bells and whistles!

A logical way would be take your current or initally running rig to a track day and creep up on leans to fouling something on either side, being aware to Only let it touch down an instant, never hold it to full foul lean, ... then holding near limit of fouling creep up on fork steering sharpness till something weird happens, front jerks too much, skipping out sense, tendency to suddenly fall down or pop up or side skate to let rear swing out to low or then hi side,... then at near foul limits and fork extreme start snapping throttle at most intense least traction points, to sense if rear just skips out a tad to help steer sharp, or if wants to tip down too harsh to resist, or catch back to harsh so it hi sides, by lifting front or rear frist, or just slides wide at same lean and fork angle till regrips and continues taking more power as if the drift slide never happened so nil pilot input but hold steady till ready to change course again. Does rear sag too far down on power leans, which unloads front grip, ya might be depending on just then, does rear not sag enough so front carries more grip than the rear so controls the rear by letting it bounce free of surface, of course then tries to pass the front, if its staccato touch downs don't hi side ya first : ( Does ya ass end feel too high or too low while getting into scary cornering? Does rear seem to compress too fast in dips, does rear seem to keep bopping after hi spots? Then put on the new shocks and repeat with much more understanding to diddle them in, then change something else...

Tire quality and air pressure balance to least steering effort and least bounce back-front on air springs is vital to isolastics behavior and very first thing to do before ANYthing else. One biggie my Master Cracker taught was never ever set air pressures so front over powers rear traction. Racing around on a slow leak is a great way to learn how much good shocks & forks can save the day. On that note I don't think anything can teach better faster and safer you and bike handling quirks and limits recovery reflexes than going out some on pretty low aired tires.

The most expensive shock you can buy off the shelf costs $1800.
Here's a search list from '05

http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/main1st.htm
http://www.huskyclub.com/ohlinsnew.htm
http://www.speedandsport.com/shocks.html
http://www.speedandsport.com/flyer.html#shock1
http://www.penskeshocks.co.uk/motorcycl ... damper.htm
http://www.aftershocks-suspension.com/pages/parts.htm
http://www.imca.it/english/prodotto1.html
http://www.race-tech.com/
http://www.aftershocks-suspension.com/pages/parts.htm
http://www.bitubo.com/html/home_en.html
http://www.huskyclub.com/ohlinsnew.htm
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
http://www.wpsuspension.com/
http://www.hyperprousa.com/home.php
http://old.bemsee.net/tech/setup.html
http://www.cannonracecraft.com/

http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/dual- ... 7Aod6HAA7Q

Click to expand...

Lot of good info there, H, thanks!

I think my racing/track days are over now - last time was in '06 with my 996 Duck and I haven't pushed this Commando anywhere near the sort of work you are describing. I just need (want) better rear response for what I'd call "occasionally spirited" road riding plus the ability to handle some rough stuff without worrying about having my teeth jolted out.

I sent a message off to a couple of the companies you posted, asking them about rear shocks for the bike and gave them my weight...we'll see what they come up with.

No need to pollute servers quoting me but was restful for me to write as if for the racer handling seeker. Have a pow pow with vendors on spring selection range. The Cdo's I've seen that bottom out do so by tire into fender, is that what you noticed?

hobot said:

No need to pollute servers quoting me but was restful for me to write as if for the racer handling seeker. Have a pow pow with vendors on spring selection range. The Cdo's I've seen that bottom out do so by tire into fender, is that what you noticed?

Click to expand...

Bot

Riding up some really nice NH rural routes, NH State Rt 153, Rt. 302, Bear Notch Road, the Kancamagus Hithway and others, the Lansdowns really worked well, the Hagons were bottoming out but I don't think they contacted the fender. The Hagons have been on the bike for about 35K miles.

MF

My old Konis just keep working and working . . . . .

wilbers are GREAT shocks -but the prices have gone up dramatically in last year or so, was quoted $900 for a pair for my laverda before i decided to try the Gazi

ludwig said:

If you want top quality shocks , don' t forget Wilbers :
http://www.wilbersamerica.com/
Every shock is custom built .

Click to expand...

Since I am in Los Angeles, and he supports Brit bike racing - Norton Manxs - and they make top quality, if I needed shocks I'd go with Gil Vaillancourt's Works Performance, http://www.worksperformance.com and their Street Trackers - http://www.worksperformance.com/html/street.html

four years ago i upgraded my original girlings to a set of Hagons. The hagons have plenty of miles on them now so they are definitely "loosened up"
They perform well in that they keep the rear Tyre firmly planted on a variety of surfaces and conditions except wet roads. They feel too firm and a tendency to lock the rear is ever present, regardless of the rubber (Avons, K81's and TT100's)
my impression is there is not enough give, they are too stiff and tend to feel as though the rear is a rigid drag bike conversion. ok im exaggerating but you get the picture.
i feel a slightly softer ride would be better for all round conditions but with good rebound and damping responses. Having said all that they rear doesnt wallow like it did with the girlings.

One problem with old twin shock motorcycles is they have minimal rear suspension travel,if you were to set one up with 25 mm / 30 mm of loaded sag there would be as little as 45 mm travel left.
Most bikes from that era ran fairly firm springs and flattish swing arm angles.
I brought a set of Ikons and feel although Koni based,the latter was better finished.

I will raise the mysterious spacer again that does not show on any parts list,work shop manual or come in any of the rebuild kits but do notice that Clubman Racing Accessories list a longer top bushing. ?
http://www.clubmanracing.com/suspensionforksnorton.php

"They feel too firm"

Well, thats my issue with the Hagons but it seems to me that's a spring issue, not a damping issue. Does your bike have any sag in the rear suspension? Mine has none even with me aboard.

"They feel too firm"

Well, thats my issue with the Hagons but it seems to me that's a spring issue, not a damping issue. Does your bike have any sag in the rear suspension? Mine has none even with me aboard.
U

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yes, that was exactly my experience when I first received by Hagons, too stiff

I sent them back and requested they fit softer springs

they now have about 25mm sag when I am sitting on the bike and they feel much more supple/compliant

Well - did some checking earlier today and found several interesting things, one of which is that what I THOUGHT the rear was doing - which I described earlier - was TOTALLY in error. Shows you that the impression of what's happening can be unrelated to what's really happening.

I removed both Hagon shocks and disassembled the springs. Both shocks' action was good and felt the same. Both springs had what appears to be the number "20" engraved in the upper end of the spring. I have no idea what the 20 might mean; it doesn't correlate to pounds or KG. I then reassembled and actually measured the sag (as opposed to thinking what it was doing). With the spring preload at the lowest position (where I had it), the sag under bike weight alone was 19mm; with me on bike it was 36mm. These are figures that are around the general recommendation for street bikes - I don't know of any specific specs for a Commando though I'd love to find them. With the springs on the 1st preload position bike weight sag was 6.3mm and with me on the bike, 23.2mm. These figures are too stiff for general street bike settings according to the general view of sag.

So fundamentally, the settings are correct so maybe there is some useful difference that "better" shocks might make...

Or maybe it's about as good as a Commando can manage... ???

mike996 said:

Both springs had what appears to be the number "20" engraved in the upper end of the spring. I have no idea what the 20 might mean; it doesn't correlate to pounds or KG.

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"20" = 20 Kg/cm = 110 lb. in. (according to my old Hagon shock list.)

The recommended shock spring rate for '69-'75 Commandos, according to their list is: 23 Kg/cm (129 lb./in.) however specifications may have changed since that list was printed (1987).

Thanks guys!

One thing I forgot to mention - the springs on the hagon shocks appear to be progressive springs - the coil to coil distance and one end of the spring is greater than the distance on the other end. Doesn't that mean they are progressive as opposed to linear spring rate?

"Did you read my most how to mesure spring rate ?"
Yes, I did, thanks. Unfortunately I don't have a drill press or a bathroom scale here in San Miguel. I'm going to assume that as LAB pointed out, the "20" means 20 kg/mm - 110lbs; it correlates with how hard I had to press down on the spring with a couple of tire irons across the coils while my wife pulled out the keeper.

mike996 said:

Thanks guys!

One thing I forgot to mention - the springs on the hagon shocks appear to be progressive springs - the coil to coil distance and one end of the spring is greater than the distance on the other end. Doesn't that mean they are progressive as opposed to linear spring rate?

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According to the Hagon list, progressive springs are marked: * (20*).

"Springs marked * are progressive coiled and the rate shown is the average working rate"

Click to expand...

So they ARE progressive. Wonder whatever the heck "average working rate" means?

mike996 said:

So they ARE progressive. Wonder whatever the heck "average working rate" means?

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Since the in/lb reading will change in a non-linear fashion with a progressive and/or two-stage-wound spring, they came up with the Average Working Rate. It's a way of giving an "average" in/lb reading, but doesn't do much good for explaining the actual working of the spring. If they're a true progressive winding (rare), the number is the average in/lb between fully extended until fully collapsed/coil bind. Two-stage springs (much more common) add a bit of non-linearity to the formula, since the spring will react like a soft-wound spring until the closely-spaced windings reach coil bind, then "shift" into the stiffer rate of the wider-spaced windings. What would be thought of as a nice two-stage length/weight curve is confused by the fact that the stiffer half is beginning to flex before the soft half ever reachs coil bind.
Getting back to the Average Working Rate, if you look at the spring we think of when we hear the term "progressive", what we most likely find is the two-stage spring. Also note that they're split roughly in 1/3rd X 2/3rds between the two rates, with the softer winding taking up the shorter 1/3 section (which should be mounted against the fixed point on the bike - top on the Norton). If our spring in question is expected to have a working travel of three inches, the soft third might impart one inch at 75 in/lbs of travel before reaching coil bind, then the stiffer two-thirds could run something like 125 in/lb for two inches. The two combined would give us an Average Working Rate of 108 in/lb (75+125+125 / 3 inches). Again, some interaction would prove to shift this value a bit, but it's just something to give an idea of what we have.
After all's said and done, a two-stage (and a progressive) spring will initially sag more than when compared to a straight-wound spring, if you use the Average Working Rate and try to compare it with the same in/lb of the straight-wound spring. "Something to keep in mind when changing to a progressive...
Nathan