Kickstarting a commando

I followed the kickstand topic with great interest, even though the main subject was not about kickstarting.
There is a great possibility i am going to buy a new project commando (posted some questions a few weeks ago).
For once i did my research prior to a purchase. It has no center stand, but i always assumed i really need one. Now i'm in doubt!

I made a habit of kickstarting a twin on the center stand (T140 and my commando 850). I spent some time adjusting the carbs and ignition because both were not the best starting bikes. I can't imagine going through that process without a center stand. After trying to kick a non starting bike 20 times, i would be to exhausted to even keep the bike upright.
Now, they both start from first kick every time. But my habit of starting it on the center stand remains. Reading the other topic, i think it might be a good idea to change that habit. My current commando needs no force at all to start. I (normal posture) put the lever at compression stroke and go stand on the lever. It slowly lowers without doing anything. As soon as it goes over TDC, it fires right up. I think even my girlfriend would be able to start it with a light hop on the lever to get it past compression (she is light).

I hate the idea of stalling at traffic lights too because people behind me are not patient anymore these days. The few times it did happen... i was able to kickstart it from a normal riding position. But it feels uncomfortable.
Is everybody cold-starting their bike just on it's wheels? If it is a good way to do, i might consider just not installing a center stand on the project bike. Or temporarily using my other commando one for carb tuning.

Any thoughts?

dimitri said:

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

Kick starting a bike on any kind of stand should result in the culprit being tarred and feathered... :twisted:

On an early Commando you'd even kill the frame by bending the lower frame tubes and if the bike is properly set-up (as your's seem to be) and you know what you're doing there is no need to torture the frame and stand. Left foot on the ground left of the bike and right foot on the kicker should always work unless you're really small. I even kick-start my HD that way and that thing was meant to be started on it's side stand. I refuse to do so...


Tim

Nothing wrong with starting the bike on the centrestand. Kickstand (sidestand) is a different story.

Best to kick with the bike on it's wheels, stands retracted. The side/prop/kick/jiffy stand is easily damaged when misused on any bike, save H-D big twins. The center/main stand is also damaged when asked to endure dynamic loads generated by rider weight jumping up and down. OTOH, (unskilled) riders that are slight of stature, short inseam, have been known to topple the bike while kicking. For them, a pass may be given. :mrgreen:

concours said:

The center/main stand is also damaged when asked to endure dynamic loads generated by rider weight jumping up and down. OTOH, (unskilled) riders that are slight of stature, short inseam, have been known to topple the bike while kicking. For them, a pass may be given. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

to each his own, I regularly start the bike on the mainstand with no ill effect, especially when tuning is required. Just stand to the side of the bike and use your right foot on the kicker.

acadian said:

to each his own, I regularly start the bike on the mainstand with no ill effect, especially when tuning is required. Just stand to the side of the bike and use your right foot on the kicker.

Click to expand...

Ditto, am short in the leg so have kick started on main stand when cold for 43 years. Somehow the stand has survived and I've yet to be tarred & feathered.

Ian

Nortoniggy said:

acadian said:

to each his own, I regularly start the bike on the mainstand with no ill effect, especially when tuning is required. Just stand to the side of the bike and use your right foot on the kicker.

Click to expand...

Ditto, am short in the leg so have kick started on main stand when cold for 43 years. Somehow the stand has survived and I've yet to be tarred & feathered.

Ian

Click to expand...

Me too. I'm 5'10" , 190lbs and I find it challenging to start my 850 without using the center stand. I've got a 160lb buddy who can barely kick it over the compression hump.
I can stand fully on the kickstart lever on compression stroke and it will hold my weight. I just can't generate the required force when balancing the bike. Perhaps my engine is tighter than most. I've seen no damage caused by doing it this way. Pretty sure my Norton owners manual recommends using the center stand for starting.

Now I've seen big/heavy riders who bang down hard on the saddle with each kick. I'd agree this technique can't be good for the stand.
I've seen videos of guys kick starting Norton's at ridiculously slow kick-over speeds. I've never been able to do this.

Now my 750 Atlas is another story. I can start this bike wearing my bedroom slippers.

I'm old. I was taught never start a bike on it's stand, either stand. I can still kick start an A65, a 68 Bonneville, or my 65 or 70 R E Interceptors from the seat.
Not my new to me 74 Commando, Cold engine or warm, it's a no go.
Now. ... I've never owned a Commando before and really need more time with the bike to get familiar and figure out the procedure. Any tips or tricks appreciated.
Is their any advantage to springing for a 75 E S kickstart lever? Is it that much longer that it might give more leverage? It is supposed to give better clearance from the exhaust which might. Help.
Is the after market longer folding ks still available? Maybe eBay if it would help starting.
Cheers
Don
PS. It will start first kick, hot or cold on the centre stand.

forgive me Norton Gods for I have sinned. I am guilty of repeatedly starting my 850 on the center stand. I have founds it is just easier for me. I have taken the easy way out and should be lashed for my discressions.

Button ="s vrooooom!

My 71 kickstand question in my second post here seems to have spawned this thread so I feel a need to chime in. I have found that kicking a bike on the kickstand/sidestand can actually unload the stand if done correctly. No damage done. That's how you have to start old Harleys. Been doing it forever. No broken lugs or stands. New to Nortons but I have to believe it will work the same. Left knee on the seat, find compression stroke, now lift your body to be centered over the kickstarter, not the bike, and come down hard. If done correctly the bike actually rocks off the sidestand a little bit in the process. Less stress on the stand, not more. If you do it with your weight centered over the bike instead of the starter you are applying much additional stress to the stand. You also wouldn't be putting maximum force into the kicker and would have a real hard time starting old Harleys. My old race buddy who gave me the Norton has over 30 British bikes (mostly Triumphs). He has a short inseam and always starts his bike this way. Nothing broken yet.

It seems like one of those things where personal preference plays a big part.

Like others, i do not feel like i am over stressing the frame/cradle/center stand by kicking it on the center stand. I just did not try doing it the other way. several years ago, i made the step from a 650 multi-cylinder jap to a 750 twin. My left foot would stay on the ground all the time when starting the multi. It seemed strange to loose all contact with the ground. Never really considered the option of starting it on it's wheels.
Now i know this way is pretty common, i can as well leave it off on the other bike. Saving some weight and money.

thanks for the opinions!

I've seen a lot of Commandos where when they're on the stand,both wheels are on the ground. I've always assumed that this is where the stand has been subjected to too much load,including bouncing up and down on it to kick over.
Terry

I am of the 5'7" and 160lb variety and although I can start the bike off the stand, I do find it easier on the centre stand. I start both 750 and 850 that way. I am 63 now and sometimes have the tendency to overbalance when starting off the stand. Its is true though that I have had to repair both stands twice now. The last time I bent a 1/2 pce of HT round bar to fit inside the lower legs on both bikes and welded it in 4 places on both bike stands. I have also made up my own pivoting system on both bikes.
Commandos were built light for a purpose, and the stand was no exception.
getting the starting procedure right is important and does result in first kick starts most of the time. I stand to the right of the bike and use my right foot. I tickle both bikes carbs till I see fuel [ when cold ] use a little throttle on the 750 and none on the 850, and they usually fire first time. When warm but after it has been standing some time I press the tickler briefly on one carb on the 850, to help starting [ depending on how long it has been since it was started ] Every bike is different and its just a matter of knowing what is required.
Dereck

Over 42 years of riding bikes (Norton for 40 years) in that time I have seen so many bikes fall over while been kicked on their stands, have seen a Norton centre stand bolt break and bike fall over with the rider's leg get trapped, luck I was around to help get the bike upright, my Norton has a high compression hot motor but its is easy to kick over when you know how, the only time I got to give it a big kick is first start for the day, if your bike is tuned right and the timing is in the right spot, they will start without to much effort, when its hot I stay sitting on the seat and it kicks over with just a half kick most times, but I do have a Joe Hunt maggie that throws out a big spark every time which helps, but its funny watching my mates try to kick my Norton over, its all got to do with the Norton nak to kick start them, mine always starts on the first kick everytime and you don't have to be a tall heavy weight to start them.
I have a RGM longer kick start lever (T160) on my Norton as well, being a lot longer than the Norton kicker it makes it a lot easier to kick as well and the best thing with it, it folds away and doen't innerfear with the back of my leg when riding.

Ashley

IF one has a fully fettered Commando it only takes one step down not a kick down to start and maybe a 2nd time before checking leads, key, fuel taps or coil wire knocked off when checking they were ok, so any way ya can get em going before you did is acceptable and if screws up the stands, so what let the next guy worry about it or just suck up to devote more Commando ritual worshiping procedures on repairing it again. Of course a whole healthy man starts his Commando on the wheels for more ride time than repair time, kick start bush and seal and splines included plus racket cogs and flash-fire of faith rest of the ride will be just as pleasant. There are at least 4 video of hand starting but do not suggest a habit of it unless beefy dude like comnoz. Commandos make one think beyond the surface and best thing for the above listed downside is spot on timing, spark gap, float level, clear pilot, no HT shorts and no water in bowls. Btw I quit the pre turn through habit before starting as just one more slow grind turn w/o much cam oil sling and have learned the tickle amount to get expected one step on cold start bangBANG- RoarrrrrrRRrrrrrrRRrrrrrr....

Oh yeah being Commandos so complexly simple if ya get them to fire with just a step on and kick it off hard the lever can out race your foot to snap lock unload knee till couple inches slams on peg or slips off to floor. I had a gal that I wanted so much - she told be be care ful of what ya wish for...

hobot said:

IF one has a fully fettered Commando it only takes one step down not a kick down to start and maybe a 2nd time before checking leads, key, fuel taps or coil wire knocked off when checking they were ok, so any way ya can get em going before you did is acceptable and if screws up the stands, so what let the next guy worry about it or just suck up to devote more Commando ritual worshiping procedures on repairing it again. Of course a whole healthy man starts his Commando on the wheels for more ride time than repair time, kick start bush and seal and splines included plus racket cogs and flash-fire of faith rest of the ride will be just as pleasant. There are at least 4 video of hand starting but do not suggest a habit of it unless beefy dude like comnoz. Commandos make one think beyond the surface and best thing for the above listed downside is spot on timing, spark gap, float level, clear pilot, no HT shorts and no water in bowls. Btw I quit the pre turn through habit before starting as just one more slow grind turn w/o much cam oil sling and have learned the tickle amount to get expected one step on cold start bangBANG- RoarrrrrrRRrrrrrrRRrrrrrr....

Oh yeah being Commandos so complexly simple if ya get them to fire with just a step on and kick it off hard the lever can out race your foot to snap lock unload knee till couple inches slams on peg or slips off to floor. I had a gal that I wanted so much - she told be be care ful of what ya wish for...

Click to expand...

I have a new engine so it sometimes takes a little more UMPPh than just a step through. If the bike is tuned correctly, it will fire with one or 2 good pushes.
I saw my engine builder start my bike with just a push of the hand. Well, more than just a push but he did fire it. I have started it on the center stand but not usually.
I usually start the bike on the wheels. Just makes sense to me. I always started all my Japanese bikes like that.

However you choose to start your bike, may I suggest that you become competent in kick-starting without any 'stands' for that one time in your life that you stall your bike at the traffic lights.
Ta.

ashman said:

Over 42 years of riding bikes (Norton for 40 years) in that time I have seen so many bikes fall over while been kicked on their stands, have seen a Norton centre stand bolt break and bike fall over with the rider's leg get trapped

Click to expand...

yeah, i've seen lots of stuff too

scotto said:

My 71 kickstand question in my second post here seems to have spawned this thread so I feel a need to chime in. I have found that kicking a bike on the kickstand/sidestand can actually unload the stand if done correctly. No damage done.....

Click to expand...

I'm with you scotto. I've never been able to start my bike without a stand (I always drop it), but I'm very careful to unload the weight on the prop stand while doing it. From cold I always have to get both feet on the pegs and put my weight into pushing it through the second compression. I've been doing this since '72 and no ill effects on the frame or stand. Each to his/her own. Now it's a different story when the bike has been running, then usually I can start it without any stand, but it's lots easier to push over since the oil is thin. But then I'm 71 now too, but it was the same when I was 32.

But I have had people start my bike by just sitting on the seat and pushing it through with their right leg muscle. Maybe I'm a weakling.