Kickstarter moving in neutral

Hello,

As my kickstarter wasn't engaging anymore i have opened up the gearbox and found that the Pawl is worn...i replaced this and put everything back together. Now i have a new problem!! The Kickstarter engages nicely again but occasionally jams (or stays down at 9 o'clock) and even worse, when i start the engine theres a new gnarling teeth sound from the gearbox which disappears as soon as i press the kickstarter back down slightly - it only makes the noise in the fully upright position (against the stop). The Kickstarter also dances around in that position.

In gear the noise and movement at the kickstarter also disappears.

It sounds as if the pegs on the layshaft 2nd Gear are semi-engaging with the layshaft 1st gear.

Any Ideas how i should go forward?

timsha said:

Hello,

As my kickstarter wasn't engaging anymore i have opened up the gearbox and found that the Pawl is worn...i replaced this and put everything back together. Now i have a new problem!! The Kickstarter engages nicely again but occasionally jams (or stays down at 9 o'clock) and even worse, when i start the engine theres a new gnarling teeth sound from the gearbox which disappears as soon as i press the kickstarter back down slightly - it only makes the noise in the fully upright position (against the stop). The Kickstarter also dances around in that position.

In gear the noise and movement at the kickstarter also disappears.

It sounds as if the pegs on the layshaft 2nd Gear are semi-engaging with the layshaft 1st gear.

Any Ideas how i should go forward?

Click to expand...

Go back in, (buy beer for a mechanic buddy to attend) and see what you did wrong. Exploded parts drawing helps. Did you inspect the kicker shaft for cracks near the pawl?

Well, i am already back in there, but as the bulk of the clusters have not been removed (only 1st gear Main and 1st gear Lay) theres not much which i could have done wrongly - all parts fitting as should

Is it possible, that putting in the new pawl has highlighted an already existing or developing problem?

I have often heard such kickstart problems are attributed to a worn layshaft bearing - has anyone rectified this problem specifically, by replacing this? The Bush which the Kickstart goes through seems ok with just a little play - not sloppy or anything.

Is it possible, that when disengaged, the pawl is not actually disengaging enough? The little riveted plate on the inner cover which holds this away from the inner teeth of the 1st Gear when disengaged doesn't seem to retract the pawl enough to clear it completely....is that normal?

"Is it possible, that when disengaged, the pawl is not actually disengaging enough? The little riveted plate on the inner cover which holds this away from the inner teeth of the 1st Gear when disengaged doesn't seem to retract the pawl enough to clear it completely....is that normal?"

- Can discount that theory - Obviously its difficult to tell if it clears the inner teeth or not with the inner cover off....what i mean is, that the pawl looks out a little in relation to the pawl housing. If this was the problem the noise would occur always, not just in neutral!

Did the pawl pivot pin go in from the correct side (counterbore)? Pin sit flush?

timsha said:

"Is it possible, that when disengaged, the pawl is not actually disengaging enough? The little riveted plate on the inner cover which holds this away from the inner teeth of the 1st Gear when disengaged doesn't seem to retract the pawl enough to clear it completely....is that normal?"

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It isn't normal, it could be a slight dimensional problem with the new pawl that is preventing it from disengaging sufficiently? Possibly the new pawl may need grinding a little on the inside so that it retracts further?

timsha said:

- Can discount that theory - Obviously its difficult to tell if it clears the inner teeth or not with the inner cover off....what i mean is, that the pawl looks out a little in relation to the pawl housing. If this was the problem the noise would occur always, not just in neutral!

Click to expand...

Do you mean "in gear" with the clutch lever pulled in (clutch disengaged) because under those circumstances the mainshaft and layshaft 1st gear stop turning-so the noise would stop.

Hi LAB,
By "in Gear" i mean in gear with the clutch out....when it was back together i drove it for a few meters without any noise....it was dark so couldn't see weather the kickstarter was moving or not but i suspect not.

Re Pawl Pin: yes the new pawl pin is put in the correct recessed side and sits flush on both sides - but quite loose - should this be punched from the back to "fix" it?

timsha said:

Hi LAB,
By "in Gear" i mean in gear with the clutch out....when it was back together i drove it for a few meters without any noise....it was dark so couldn't see weather the kickstarter was moving or not but i suspect not.

Re Pawl Pin: yes the new pawl pin is put in the correct recessed side and sits flush on both sides - but quite loose - should this be punched from the back to "fix" it?

Click to expand...

No punching, (too hard anyway) but if you've got an inordinate amount of movement (like .150" or more) on the kickshaft, the (loose) pin could be coming partway out and cocking, jamming.

Should the 1st Gear Lay turn freely on the kickstart shaft when the pawl is retracted, because mine is definitely catching the pawl - not enough for it to engage, but enough to make a horrible noise when i turn it.


However, when the bike is in neutral i wouldn't expect the 1st gears to be moving, which they don't with the covers off...the question is how do they behave when they're on....does the 1st gear get pushed against the second gear sufficiently hard for it to turn? (i wouldn't have thought so cos there is some lateral play on the kickshaft when everything is assembled).

timsha said:

Should the 1st Gear Lay turn freely on the kickstart shaft when the pawl is retracted, because mine is definitely catching the pawl - not enough for it to engage, but enough to make a horrible noise when i turn it.

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I guess you mean 1st gear turning freely on the layshaft, but obviously layshaft 1st gear shouldn't be catching the pawl when the kickstart shaft has rotated back to the stop plate.

timsha said:

However, when the bike is in neutral i wouldn't expect the 1st gears to be moving,

Click to expand...

Yes, they will be turning.

L.A.B. said:

Yes, they will be turning.

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Yes, the words 'constant mesh' mean precisely that.

By the way,

As i was reassembling the gearbox i checked at every stage, that there were no adverse noises in neutral by turning the back wheel. Only when the motor ran did it make the noise. I suppose that has to do with the fact that the layshaft is stationary when the engine is not running.

As far as i can comprehend ... with the engine running (bike in neutral, no clutch) the mainshaft turns, which turns the mainshaft 1st gear on the spline and this in turn, turns the layshaft 1st which runs freely on its bush. The other layshaft gears turn only once a gear is engaged.

This would mean, that the only possible source of the noise, is from the layshaft 1st gear grinding either against the pawl or hitting the pegs on the Lay 2nd (unlikely because the kickstarter has lateral play).

Would you agree with that?

Can the kickstart sticking occasionally at 9 o'clock be attributed to too much lateral play on the kickstart? I have approximately 3.5 mm (no shims). Mostly is sticks when the kickstarter doesn't engage properly when kicked.....when this happens it makes a loud noise an stops at 9 o'clock and sometimes jams there...

Its been a while since I studied these, but my memory is that if you examine all the splines and dogs,
all the gears are spinning all the time (on the move) - but only 2 pairs of gears will be transmitting the power.
Thats what constant mesh is all about - no spinning up stationary gears, and getting gear clash, or needing to be synchronised.

Something isn't right with the kickstarter (obviously), is the spring strong enough to return it.
That loose pawl doesn't sound good, how do other folks deal with this ?

timsha said:

As far as i can comprehend ... with the engine running (bike in neutral, no clutch) the mainshaft turns, which turns the mainshaft 1st gear on the spline and this in turn, turns the layshaft 1st which runs freely on its bush. The other layshaft gears turn only once a gear is engaged.

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Yes (although layshaft 3rd will also be turning because mainshaft 3rd is splined to the shaft).

timsha said:

This would mean, that the only possible source of the noise, is from the layshaft 1st gear grinding either against the pawl or hitting the pegs on the Lay 2nd (unlikely because the kickstarter has lateral play).

Would you agree with that?

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Unless it's something unforeseen then yes, I think we can agree on that.

timsha said:

Can the kickstart sticking occasionally at 9 o'clock be attributed to too much lateral play on the kickstart?

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Personally, I would think any sticking or picking-up would more likely be due to insufficient end play rather than too much?
As the problem apparently wasn't there before you fitted the new pawl then I can't see it could be caused by endplay if that's all you've done?