Is there morals in business anymore

I have a friend who has spent hours measuring ,testing , and designing parts to help the Norton community keep our bikes on the road. He manufactured/built these parts for years only to have someone take his fixes and replicate them for a few more dollars profit. He didn’t get a patent on them...and I don’t think he should have to. There is something immoral about that ...it really rubs me the wrong way.

Am I thinking about this wrong? How would you feel if this had happen to you?

Rod

no your thoughts are correct and I also know who the offender is. I also think it was a low blow on his part.

Patent infringement is everywhere now. I bought a chinese 5hp engine off craigslist to power my chipper/shredder when the old engine died. The chinese engine is an exact copy of a Honda engine. Even the casting looks exactly the same as the honda in every way. The chinese engine needed some various parts that were missing when I got the engine, but to order the parts from china takes weeks so I got the parts for the honda version engine and they fit right on the chinese clone engine... talk about a rip off..

I know a guy who developed a ski binding that he got a patent for. A big corporation in the industry sued him to have his patent removed and won that suit. Then they applied and got a patent for his exact unique invention which they previously sued to have removed. They then defended it fiercely in the manufacturing community. At one point they waited until a small rival manufacturer had begun distributing their own proprietary ski binding before sending a "Cease and desist" letter claiming infringement, which was eventually negotiated into a commission to be paid to them for every binding the competitor sold. The competitor couldn't afford to litigate, so they paid the commission to the company that stole the patent which they now owned.

Patents cost a lot of money. If you don't get one, you can have your design ripped off. If you do get one, then maybe there isn't even enough demand for the unique product to pay the lawyer's and patent fees... frying pan or fire there

.. and NO, it's not the right thing to do. I wouldn't do it. I'm not surprised to see Bill comment the same... that's why I like him....

This is one of those kryptonite posts like the walridge belt drive posts I made. Most people are going to stay away from it like superman does from Kryptonite... because it's safer to keep your mouth shut than tell any ugly truth.

A Patent only works if you have the money to defend it, as I explained to someone who was penniless and had a good idea a few years ago, if you have no money then don't bother with a Patent, you are just allowing the competition advance notice. In civil litigation as there are a layer of appeals allowed, so the one with money can just drag it out until the other party is out of funds and the one with money wins by default.

How do these people sleep at night...not even giving credit for doing the real work...I am just really surprised this happens with no consequences!
Rod

I don't think you will find many here that will disagree with you on this... I hope

Can someone develop a Norton blacklist so we know who NOT to throw money at?

Now THAT would be a fun thread!

One way to keep people honest (to some degree) is transparency. So name names. I for one, have no who is supposedly ripping off others

Hi Rod
Must admit this must have passed me by!
No idea who you are on about or who's copied the parts.
I agree it's bad form but it happens all the time. Worse if you have done the design work & brought it to fruition.
I have lent out obsolete items out for people to copy. Mostly I get a thank you sometimes a new spare. Only once has someone borrowed an item ( a Yoshi Honda 400/4 oil filter to oil cooler pick up.) The deal was he would make a spare for me. He told me he could not cut the thread size & eventually, very eventually returned my part. Years later I noticed a bike built by this gentleman for sale & yes it had an oil cooler pick up fitted.
say lovey as the French say lol

Ah I think I know what this is. For the record, I still plan to buy from the originator. But yes, I had seen the copy and paused for the moment, but my plan is still to buy from the originator. I just hadn't put in the order yet.

I run a forum and we have a 'buyer feedback' section. That way, people who sell parts and who are in the community get the plug. Vendors who are just generic resellers don't benefit.

If there was information somewhere I could see that the seller had conceived/created the parts, I would be an immediate buyer. But without knowing, and if I stumble upon parts for sale in the normal place, I have no idea and don't know enough to be discerning. Help me buy your inventions by pointing me in that direction.

A slight rant but a point to consider... I just bought some Commando parts from someone who came up with his own ideas. He has not acknowledged my order nor am I aware of when I should receive them. Granted for $150 it is not a great loss, but there's also the business side of it to consider. Don't make it hard for people to buy your inventions if your goal is to make sure people get the best solution out there.

Britbike850 said:

I have a friend who has spent hours measuring ,testing , and designing parts to help the Norton community keep our bikes on the road. He manufactured/built these parts for years only to have someone take his fixes and replicate them for a few more dollars profit. He didn’t get a patent on them...and I don’t think he should have to. There is something immoral about that ...it really rubs me the wrong way.

Am I thinking about this wrong? How would you feel if this had happen to you?

Rod

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Rod, does this friend currently sell the parts?

On the Guzzi side I helped instigate getting a part made and back on the market. The original designer was offered a royalties which was happily paid. A part supplier in the UK on the other hand copied the part and offers it. Offering a royalties is the right way to do it, especially if the part is no longer made.

That being said if it's a part that isn't that unique then it get grey fast.

Out in the rest of the world copying and selling is rampant.

I am glad to see I am not alone in this... if nothing else, they should at least acknowledge who the designer was that they copied so customers could make an informed decision on where to spend their money... I would always buy from the original...even if it was more money but that’s just me. Our market is small, it would be a shame to lose innovation because of greed among us.

yes he does still make and sell the parts and I just got off the phone with him. the pirate for a while was selling his copy and for a short time still had the originator listed as the maker on his website. I wont say who it is but he is a well respected supplier and that was a crappy way to do the original supplier. I lost some respect for him for doing this the way he did.

swooshdave said:

Rod, does this friend currently sell the parts?

On the Guzzi side I helped instigate getting a part made and back on the market. The original designer was offered a royalties which was happily paid. A part supplier in the UK on the other hand copied the part and offers it. Offering a royalties is the right way to do it, especially if the part is no longer made.

That being said if it's a part that isn't that unique then it get grey fast.

Out in the rest of the world copying and selling is rampant.

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I have looked into this particular case in the past. I am satisfied with the differences in the two items, although subtle, makes them different enough. Yes, they provide the same function but this is one of those cases where there's a grey area in if an item has been improved upon is it still the same?

Swooshdave,
What are the differences? Look exactly the same to me. How was it improved? I have used the original for about 8-10 years. It does the intended job so how is it improved? Inquiring minds want to know! Any photos to show the difference/improvement?
Thanks,
Rod

I have two friends who manufacture. One registers his designs. The other makes the engine management systems which are used in Porsches and Ferraris and is much wealthier. He is simply resigned to the fact that the Chinese will reverse-engineer his products. We are all very smart buying from the Chinese, however the communist money system is a bottomless pit and patents mean nothing to them. It is all about promoting their authoritarian ideology.
In Australia our ruling politicians are conservative which is the opposite of progressive. The other day I watched a video about aircraft production in the USA during WW2. It pointed out what can be achieved by private industry which is unencumbered by bureaucracy. I think too many people believe their own bullshit. Proactive is always better than reactive. Our Australian politicians claim to be good economic managers, however they only know austerity and tax breaks for the wealthy. Most of Australia is still undeveloped and we are a sitting duck.

Royalties is a moot word, especially to those from the far east, the Japanese hate paying it for one, but if someone else has got a patent, then they know their position is unwinable.
If you cannot afford a patent, then get some proof, both photographed and written, with dates you invented your idea, backed up with undisputable witnesses. This will prevent someone else sueing you.

Britbike850 said:

Swooshdave,
What are the differences? Look exactly the same to me. How was it improved? I have used the original for about 8-10 years. It does the intended job so how is it improved? Inquiring minds want to know! Any photos to show the difference/improvement?
Thanks,
Rod

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I just said I am satisfied with the differences. I am not going to try to defend one or the other. Nor am I going to lose sleep over a $20-25 part.

Bernhard said:

Royalties is a moot word, especially to those from the far east, the Japanese hate paying it for one, but if someone else has got a patent, then they know their position is unwinable.
If you cannot afford a patent, then get some proof, both photographed and written, with dates you invented your idea, backed up with undisputable witnesses. This will prevent someone else sueing you.

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Nothing will prevent you from being sued. There are only things you can do to improve your position. The only thing that will guarantee that you don't lose a suit is money.

swooshdave said:

Nothing will prevent you from being sued. There are only things you can do to improve your position. The only thing that will guarantee that you don't lose a suit is money.

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If you can prove you had say the said item before anybody else , any judge hearing in court that you were aheard of the competition will award in your favour- assuming you can prove it.

Bernhard said:

If you can prove you had say the said item before anybody else , any judge hearing in court that you were aheard of the competition will award in your favour- assuming you can prove it.

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That is how it should work.