In the real world

The truth of the matter is that there were almost no Nortons raced here in Oz. The only Norton that was consistently run during the 70s was the Ryans of Parramatta Norton that was ridden by Len Atlee. ( I can only remember a couple of one off entries by other dealers.)That bike proved very fast and probably should have won a couple of Castrol 6 hour races. It was poor preparation by Ryans that prevented them winning. Immediately before their first 6 hour race, the mechanic decided to install new brake pads. There was no opportunity to bed them in and the result was that Atlee was put down on at least 2 occasions in the race when the brake locked. There was a couple of pad changes during the race to try to fix things but to no avail. The Norton ran fairly well and showed that it was clearly the quickest bike on the track, but immediately after the race word got round that Nortons had dodgy disc brakes. From memory the following year the Ryans Norton cylinders lifted off because the mechanic had forgotten to tighten them down. When Atlee pitted with the problem most of the nuts had fallen off and they didn’t have any spares. Yes proper preparation would have made all the difference. Norton sales were always slow here and the dealers would not spend the money to prepare and race one. That said I cannot remember a trident running in a production race although there was the occasional bonny.
I was working for a Japanese bike dealer at the time and I was part of their pit crew at the 6hr race for several years. I saw and was part of the preparation that went into their entry. I was asked to run in a Mach 3 that they were getting ready. That bike just would not go round corners. (My own bike was also a Mach 3 kwak that almost killed me when it went into a wobble and put me onto the wrong side of the road.) The bike was put in an alignment jig and checked. The steering head angle was too steep but even worse the steering was 4”to the right at the road. The headstock was cut off the bike and welded back on to specification. Fork damping was altered and the rear shocks were stiffened (neither of which were detected by race scrutineers) and the engine of course was brought into specification. The result was a bike that was nothing like a production machine but that met rules. That kind of treatment was normal in production racing for Japanese bike entries but did not happen with English or Italian bikes as the dealers that were running them could not afford the expense and it was not necessary because English and Italian frames were properly built in the first place.
 
Filched these from elsewhere . 1976 Newlynn Street Circuit . Attended this ,Robbie Dean on his Commando . a Frontrunner .

In the real world


In the real world


In the real world


Click on this for picture at Bay Park . Note grid position from Qualifying .

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jorvikiwi/5222237725/
 
How did that Norton guy do against the NZ Moriwaki Z1's which I hear were pretty quick?
 
Looking at the picture of the start, The Norton has lifted the front tyre, and looks to be outclassed by the competition. But all the other bikes appear to be much heavier. What were the results of that race. I would imagine it would have been pretty close, as the Norton seems to be a maniac (in a good way)
 
This standing start take off stuff is something I've gotten a feel for the hard school of knocks way. Next to hard braking its the scariest skill to practice.

1. Commandos are dam hard to wheelie compared to about anything else with a road race character ie: turning leaning capacity. This means Cdo's can pull more forward G's before thrust lifts vector upward more than ahead.

2. What ya want to pay more attention to than the air under the front tire in still photo's is the deformation of rear patch.

3. That Norton is getting the jump on em. But that's the torque jerk factor, then the horse power part comes into play for how long the strong pull lasts in upper gears. VW Bug's could out sprint many hot cars in short take offs in city traffic but couldn't maintain it past 1st or 2nd. Hell I ate up the 70's pony car's on a bone stock 110 hp Corvair up to the 60's mph zone but couldn't keep up after that. In the suburban/city, ie: housing divisions road racing I ate em up even with all seats occupied but not on freeways. That '65 Corvair would out corner em too up to freeway speeds before we left the clover leaf's accelerating turning.

4. The main reason I want big block blower power is not to loose ground gained in the turns by lacking the pull to keep out accelerating them after the apexes. In the real world up to 90-100 mph with more turns than opens a Combat is hard to beat.

5. I've a bit of ego to stay in front of sports squadrons out here in the tight Mt. twisties and my tool of choice ain't no balloon tire'd buzz bomb. Got one of those with upgraded suspension on pure race only tires so know the hard way its a freaking dangerous corner cripple compared to what really jerks my neck and wrist chain in turns.
 
Matt Spencer said:
Oreally .

In the real world
Click to expand...
Would love one but 25 000$ motors that need rebuilding all the time aren't my thing.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tXEaCRWfUA&list=FLLOjq69ssCcuYhNFuUBvSOQ&index=27&feature=plpp_video[/video]
check out 4:33
 
Carbonfibre said:
How did that Norton guy do against the NZ Moriwaki Z1's which I hear were pretty quick?
Click to expand...


Think I went to the 76 race on the mighty T250T Suzuki . ! :lol: 4th or 6th on one cylinder . :lol: Hed get under / around going into the left hand sweeper past the roundabout and bus stop , quite a quick bend , everyone wobbling and scrabbling coming out of it .Were left hand drive , so the bus stop down the hill into the roundabout had a projecting curb as they all
ran wide running w f o out of the bend , and the ' bus stop ' pull off ' was used as road ,

Had a yarn , thought he was a grumpy 12 year old .Didnt run the last race due to ' tecnical issues ' . Grim determination
was the watchword . He mayveve run around 2nd at times . Id think my 750 as quick with better ' wind out in the top half.
His wasnt too elaborate .

Bay park , 2nd on the Grid is from qualifying , If he could upset a rice burners equilibrium he might hold it of , tho really
he'd need to upset two , so they got in each others way to the finish line . 8) The start / finish is half way down pit straight .

Really theyed have no chance if he had it running right and didnt blow it ( UP :( :shock: ) Old School bend swinger. w.f.o.
( there was the odd' He'd got them , through the grapevine , when hed held them off , or on the odd occasion , blew them off)
I think , he'd run basically ' 850 Combat spec with 32 mm Mk IIS , 80ish when I ( finally ) got my carbs off ( out of ) him ,
at his store , 2nd time Id hiched down there , he had said what spec he ran , when asked . ' They all have them ' , the 32s
he supplied . One size fits all .Take it ( if you can get it ) or leave it .He'd thrown a 4 S in by 1980 .Availiability was appalling .

Track is open apparently constant radius bends , so reads . Pit Straight , off , full wellie , 90 knots , drop on left peg & roll around the far boundary , bringing throttle up & staying on through last third onto The LONG Straight , flatish , level , wide.
so is w.f.o. dragstrip for 1/4 mileish . Hard Down for tightish Left 180 , gas it , almost to 3rd , hard over for r.h. sweeper ,
45 to 60 :shock: knots , 180 deg ( Got Triton in Front understeer , Rear oversteer & whole contraption chattering here )
( really ists 50 ish , all onto straights , so youre trying to get it throttled up hard to come out of the bend well , no stuffing about ) . short straight , 50 yds , hard over left for a more open l.h. 180 onto straight, first halfs still only 60 ish though .

Yea . so on a cool or in NZ as the upholder of the flame .Norton dealer forced to go Suzuki later . Ran the Triton in
a race ( with Open Production mixed with 500 raceing class)Him on a Katana 1100 amougst several others .Big barges on
the tight taracks . Once things had warmed up ( a few laps ) they could thread the needle , but at your mercy if you held the track they needed .
 
The H2 nutters Sister ;

1994 World Land Speed Record for 1200cc normally-aspirated road bike broken by Alice Walby on a Harris Pipes-equipped Triumph Daytona clocked @ 169mph on South Eyre Rd,
 
Matt Spencer said:
Carbonfibre said:
How did that Norton guy do against the NZ Moriwaki Z1's which I hear were pretty quick?
Click to expand...


Think I went to the 76 race on the mighty T250T Suzuki . ! :lol: 4th or 6th on one cylinder . :lol: Hed get under / around going into the left hand sweeper past the roundabout and bus stop , quite a quick bend , everyone wobbling and scrabbling coming out of it .Were left hand drive , so the bus stop down the hill into the roundabout had a projecting curb as they all
ran wide running w f o out of the bend , and the ' bus stop ' pull off ' was used as road ,

Had a yarn , thought he was a grumpy 12 year old .Didnt run the last race due to ' tecnical issues ' . Grim determination
was the watchword . He mayveve run around 2nd at times . Id think my 750 as quick with better ' wind out in the top half.
His wasnt too elaborate .

Bay park , 2nd on the Grid is from qualifying , If he could upset a rice burners equilibrium he might hold it of , tho really
he'd need to upset two , so they got in each others way to the finish line . 8) The start / finish is half way down pit straight .

Really theyed have no chance if he had it running right and didnt blow it ( UP :( :shock: ) Old School bend swinger. w.f.o.
( there was the odd' He'd got them , through the grapevine , when hed held them off , or on the odd occasion , blew them off)
I think , he'd run basically ' 850 Combat spec with 32 mm Mk IIS , 80ish when I ( finally ) got my carbs off ( out of ) him ,
at his store , 2nd time Id hiched down there , he had said what spec he ran , when asked . ' They all have them ' , the 32s
he supplied . One size fits all .Take it ( if you can get it ) or leave it .He'd thrown a 4 S in by 1980 .Availiability was appalling .

Track is open apparently constant radius bends , so reads . Pit Straight , off , full wellie , 90 knots , drop on left peg & roll around the far boundary , bringing throttle up & staying on through last third onto The LONG Straight , flatish , level , wide.
so is w.f.o. dragstrip for 1/4 mileish . Hard Down for tightish Left 180 , gas it , almost to 3rd , hard over for r.h. sweeper ,
45 to 60 :shock: knots , 180 deg ( Got Triton in Front understeer , Rear oversteer & whole contraption chattering here )
( really ists 50 ish , all onto straights , so youre trying to get it throttled up hard to come out of the bend well , no stuffing about ) . short straight , 50 yds , hard over left for a more open l.h. 180 onto straight, first halfs still only 60 ish though .

Yea . so on a cool or in NZ as the upholder of the flame .Norton dealer forced to go Suzuki later . Ran the Triton in
a race ( with Open Production mixed with 500 raceing class)Him on a Katana 1100 amougst several others .Big barges on
the tight taracks . Once things had warmed up ( a few laps ) they could thread the needle , but at your mercy if you held the track they needed .
Click to expand...

Not able to tell from the above whether the Norton guy beat the Moriwaki Z1's or not.................be interested to hear if he did.
 
And a Kawaski is far from a modern Flat Tracker . In fact it could be said to be " A modern mass produced consumer appliance " , Thank You .
If I wanted to discuss or consider such devises Id know where to look , Perhaps I might find some relevant and correct informsation ,
Id suggest you check youre facts before posting . though the whiles of the contraptions are of no intrest to me , I do have experts on the matter I would consult should I choose to .
Seeing Ive seen no Nortons' Disitegrate ' , I should also have others Id chose to consult should I wish to be advised on these .

If youd take the trouble to check the accuracy of youre information , it may be of some relevance .
 
If theres a Moriwaki on the line , We can assume he beat them in Qualifying . Records of results from that era in NZ ive been unable to ascertain . mPresumably some still have club newsletters and the local press .
 
Matt Spencer said:
And a Kawaski is far from a modern Flat Tracker . In fact it could be said to be " A modern mass produced condumer appliance " , Thank You .
If I wanted to discuss or consider such devises Id know where to look , Perhaps I might find some relevant and correct informsation ,
Id suggest you check youre facts before posting . though the whiles of the contraptions are of no intrest to me , I do have experts on the matter I would consult should I choose to . Seeing Ive seen no Nortons
' Disitegrate ' , I should also have others Id chose to consult should I whish to be advised on these .

If youd take the trouble to check the accuracy of youre information , it may be of some relevance .
Click to expand...


Old classic bikes like Norton and Triumph are just fine for relatively sedate riding, but sports bikes they are not and sustained high rpm running at or near maximum speed will result in major engine damage. The far superior reliability of the early 70s Jap machines was a major selling point, and like it or not this was something that helped to seal the fate of the Brit manufacturers.
 
Carbonfibre said:
Old classic bikes like Norton and Triumph are just fine for relatively sedate riding, but sports bikes they are not and sustained high rpm running at or near maximum speed will result in major engine damage. The far superior reliability of the early 70s Jap machines was a major selling point, and like it or not this was something that helped to seal the fate of the Brit manufacturers.
Click to expand...

The most absurd statement I've heard in some time.

I have a near bone stock 1969 (actually built from parts from '66 to '69) Triumph 650 Bonneville that I built for Production class vintage racing, with Sparx electronic ignition, and +.020 Emgo pistons, EVERYTHING ELSE STOCK. Steel clutch plates rubbed up on my shop floor, cheap Emgo friction plates. Stock (properly jetted) Amal 930 concentrics with OEM pancake filters. Entirely stock valve train, transmission, Lucas charging system and OEM oil pump. Bone stock rolling chassis (except clubman handlebars) built from mismatched parts (all Triumph big twin 66-69). Plain Dunlop 501 GTs, no sticky race rubber.

Even though it ran 12 laps of the Texas World Speedway with no oil getting to the top end (plugged feed line) at racing school, it suffered no ill effects. I then raced:

2007
Practice + 2 races at Sandia Classic in Albuquerque
Practice + 2 races at Barber's

2008
Practice + 1 race at Roebling Road Raceway in Bloomington, GA
Practice + 2 races at Daytona International Speedway
Practice + 2 races at Road america in Elkhart Lake, WI
Practice + 2 races at Grattan, MI
Cold Start race and Dirt Drags at New Ulm, TX
Set AHRMA class record on the 3-mile course at the Bonneville Salt Flats (BUB meet)
Practice + 2 races at Miller Motorsports park
Practice + 2 races at the Sandia Classic in Albuquerque
Practice + 2 races at Barber's
Finished 5th in points, in a field of 20 riders.

2009
Set AHRMA class record for standing Start Mile at the Texas Mile in Goliad
Cold Start race and Dirt Drags at New Ulm, TX

2010
Practice + 2 races at Willow Springs
Ran the Texas Mile spring meet
Practice + 1 race at Barber's

In all that time, the only service the bike received was an oil change at the end of each season, with fresh spark plugs every half-dozen or so races.

I did check the valve adjustment every once in a while, but have only adjusted them 2 or 3 times.

Clutch has never been adjusted, still on the same cheap Emgo plates.

Carbs have been cleaned once, after the historic rain and flooding that we drove through in the Michigan area in 2008, just a bit of water in the float bowls, nothing more.

The bike blew a fuse just into the first lap of second practice at Barber's in 2007, still no clue why, but it was fine in the race. I shook loose a coil connection in morning practice the next day, but got it figured out in time for the race.

I had a wierd failure in the second race at Willow Springs in 2010, the bottom of the tank rubbed through one of the coil wires, causing it to short and die. A similar failure happened at barber's, right at pit out, causing me to miss the first race ever.

Other than the wierd but very typical electrical failures, this bike has had ZERO MECHANICAL failures. It will wheelie on throttle alone, even crouched forward with the clubman bars. The clutch has NEVER slipped. The bike has gotten the holeshot on the field (check track photographers websites and available videos to verify) since the second race at Daytona in '08 (my 7th race as a rookie). I may not be the best rider out there, but the BIKE is among the best (if not THE best) in it's class as far as reliability.

I trust that if I were to install lights and a plate on the bike, I could ride it anywhere I want, at sustained highway speeds, with no worries of failure.

If I had the funds, I trust that i could race another season or two with no worries of mechanical failure.

Based on this, your most recent, statement, I believe ANY credibility you have ever managed to add to your posts SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF OTHER PEOPLE'S WRITING, WORK, OR EXPERIENCE, is now COMPLETELY LOST.

I am not among those that believe my Bonneville or Commando can outrun a Z6 on the track or run 175 MPH on the salt, but I am among the THOUSANDS who have FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE WITH MACHINES I HAVE BUILT, who can categorically state that "...sustained high rpm running at or near maximum speed will result in major engine damage" is an absolute absurdity.

I believe your ENTIRE HISTORY of second-hand information (on this forum), none of which you can personally quantify, is thus essentially null.
 
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