In the real world

gory said:
I liked this forum much better whenit was troll free.
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me too, why won't he just go away? really wish I could avoid his posts, but I am, apparently, low on will power.

OK - New Years resolution, if I absolutely do not respond to anything he is involved in, either he or I will no longer be here. Big risk for me (I have 2 Nortons, he has none) but I may be willing to take it[/quote]

That's a resolution we all can live with!! :D :D
 
Unlike some posters here I am very patriotic and feel that it was a crying shame that the once great Brit motorcycle industry was decimated by the Japanese, who were building better bikes which cost less than the re-hashed 30/40s designs being offered by the British.

Notwithstanding what gets posted on here about Nortons which handle like they are on rails, do 130mph and run 12s quarters all day, the majority of bike buyers back in the 70s preferred Jap bikes, and the greed, mismanagement and half arsed engineering which had blighted the Brit industry for perhaps 30 years, meant there was nothing on offer from Britain that came close to the completely new machines from Japan.

Its great to be into old bikes, but it seems pretty silly to say these machines were superior to the Japanese bikes which effectively heralded the end of the Brit bike industry. Posters on here are of course not alone in feeling the old Brits were pretty much unbeatable............those running the Brit bike industry felt exactly the same way!

The result of this attitude is of course a matter of record, and the failure to develop new products, and to continue to offer the 30/40s based bikes, left the worldwide motorcycle market wide open for the Japanese, who very quickly exploited their very obvious advantages, and in the first few years of producing bikes like the H1/H2, CB750, Z1 took a very big slice out of the US big bike market, which was previously dominated by the Brit machines, which were certainly superior to the US made large capacity machines.

I would suggest before accusing others of "trolling", consider the fact that if those running the Brit bike industry in the 50s and 60s hadnt had pretty much the same view of their old 30/40s based machines as most who post here, that it might still be possible to buy a British manufactured Norton, BSA, Triumph, Vincent, Velocette, Matchless or AJS today, and that the British made bike would be every bit as good as any other in the world!
 
Gory, I'll make that my resolution too along with the promise to bulk up. The usual weight loss/exercise resolution always fails so, this year I decided to bulk up instead. Even started two weeks early. So far it is going perfectly according to plan. :lol:
 
Pre 1980 Jap ' reliabiity ? ' Kawasaki Racers ' Ian falloon . your libary should have it . Z1s , steering ? the works , its got it . Modifications.improvements

Kawaski , petulant and schemeing .
Honda , Bland .
Suzuki , dependable . ( this is a total misstruth when refering to a T250T I was sujected to . so thats total impartiality for you )
Yamaha , tries hard .

MV , ?
Laverda ?
Ducati ?
Beneili ?
Motomorini ?

BSA , " the worlds most popular motorcycle " 1950s
Triumph , " The Worlds Best Motorcycle " 1960s ( 65 Bonne stated as " britains greatest export earner " )
Norton , " The Worlds best Roadholding "


So , pre ' the demise ' 1980 , choice is youres , if youre up to it .

If its just TRANSPORT , 2.000.000 Honda 50 owners Cant Be Wrong . :)
 
Matt Spencer said:
Pre 1980 Jap ' reliabiity ? ' Kawasaki Racers ' Ian falloon . your libary should have it . Z1s , steering ? the works , its got it . Modifications.improvements

Kawaski , petulant and schemeing .
Honda , Bland .
Suzuki , dependable . ( this is a total misstruth when refering to a T250T I was sujected to . so thats total impartiality for you )
Yamaha , tries hard .

MV , ?
Laverda ?
Ducati ?
Beneili ?
Motomorini ?

BSA , " the worlds most popular motorcycle " 1950s
Triumph , " The Worlds Best Motorcycle " 1960s ( 65 Bonne stated as " britains greatest export earner " )
Norton , " The Worlds best Roadholding "


So , pre ' the demise ' 1980 , choice is youres , if youre up to it .

If its just TRANSPORT , 2.000.000 Honda 50 owners Cant Be Wrong . :)
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The fact that the majority of motorcycle buyers in the 70s didnt feel the same way as you, is indicated by the number of Jap bikes sold in the worlds biggest market during the 70s (USA). That those managing the Brit factories did feel the same way as you, was indicated by the fact they were pitting designs from the 30/40s against brand new machines from Japan...................
 
only realists bought Japanese bikes . Entusists boght British MotorCycles . The Commando's a fearfully modern design . It was designed AFTER the War .

Once it was Ships of Wood and men of steel . Now its steel ships and wooden men . Youre deportation papers to the camp in S E Asia are on the way . :wink:
 
Matt Spencer said:
only realists bought Japanese bikes . Entusists boght British MotorCycles . The Commando's a fearfully modern design . It was designed AFTER the War .

Once it was Ships of Wood and men of steel . Now its steel ships and wooden men . Youre deportation papers to the camp in S E Asia are on the way . :wink:
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Which war Matt..............lol
 
Hey, the ignore feature works great. I've never used it before but it is a cinch to do. I suggest old CarbonFire could put all of us on his ignore list, we should definitely all put him on our ignore lists , then we'll get along like the good old days.
 
Seems unfortunate that most people posting here, have pretty much exactly the same attitude which allowed the Japanese to decimate the once great British motorcycle industry! Simply ignoring what occurred isnt going to alter the course of history, and had those running the Brit factories actually invested in developing new products, then I rather think they would still be with us today!
 
The fact that the once great British motorcycle industry used the "ignore feature" when the first of the obviously superior small capacity Jap bikes came onto the market, is perhaps one of the main reasons they went to the wall...........
 
ludwig said:
Carbonfibre said:
The fact that the once great British motorcycle industry used the "ignore feature" when the first of the obviously superior small capacity Jap bikes came onto the market, is perhaps one of the main reasons they went to the wall...........
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+ 1
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People who live in glass houses...

You guys obviously have flaky brain cells, the first small capacity Japanese bikes were made out of cheeze, the bolts would rust in place and be rounded off trying to get them off if they didn't break in place that is. I can vividly remember rounding off the drain plug on my brother's CD 175. The saving grace to these bikes was their price, it was when they made bigger bikes that they became better made.

I for one would really like to know how many CB750s were made in the time the Commando was produced and how many are still on the road, I bet more Nortons have survived to now than Hondas even if they produced many more.

Jean
 
Jeandr said:
ludwig said:
Carbonfibre said:
The fact that the once great British motorcycle industry used the "ignore feature" when the first of the obviously superior small capacity Jap bikes came onto the market, is perhaps one of the main reasons they went to the wall...........
Click to expand...

+ 1
Click to expand...

People who live in glass houses...

You guys obviously have flaky brain cells, the first small capacity Japanese bikes were made out of cheeze, the bolts would rust in place and be rounded off trying to get them off if they didn't break in place that is. I can vividly remember rounding off the drain plug on my brother's CD 175. The saving grace to these bikes was their price, it was when they made bigger bikes that they became better made.

I for one would really like to know how many CB750s were made in the time the Commando was produced and how many are still on the road, I bet more Nortons have survived to now than Hondas even if they produced many more.

Jean
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I think one of the most significant small capacity Jap machines was the Honda C50, millions of which are in daily use throughout the world! The C50 should perhaps have been a design that provided a wake up call to the British who were in the 70s still churning out museum pieces whose original designs dated back to the 30/40s?
 
I think you have made your point several time over and over and over. Now for a reality check.

In the early 70's I used to work for the West Australian state importer of Yamaha. At the time the XS650 twin had built a good if somehat bland reputation. It had an exceptional motor and here is how if came about - In 1967 Yamaha Japan brought in a BSA A65 a Triumph T120 and a Norton Atlas. The examined all of the features and derived the XS1 a pretty decent machine particulary the motor but the frame suspension and brakes were mediocre. Chrome and paint was inferior but it was priced well and sold OK. It had no electric start it vibrated and in general was seen as a less of sporting machine compared to the hotter British twins which is true. Yamaha made its success from a breed of potent 250 and 350 tw0 strokes that gave owners a trade in path once they had graduated from a junior drivers license. There was no comparable British small bike.

When the Honda CB750 came out everything changed. Commandos and Rocket 3s and Tridents were the big bikes of the day. Good 650 Bonnies beat Honda 4s in local production races and Yamaha had nothing in those stakes the XS650 was just not competitive. They improved and refined the XS650 I remember Percy Tait of Triumph production racing fame was contracted by Yamaha to help redesign the XS650B frame. They could not afford the time to retool the chassis line so they made 37 mods to the existing frame and that did take the hinge out of the middle and by 1974 it was a pretty good allround bike.

But Yamaha also had nothing in the muscle bike stakes so they had rapidly developed the XS750 twin as the new contender. My God what a heap of shit. At one time we had 9 motors on the shop floor all waiting for warranty replacements. The motors overheated and leaked oil. Into the points housing! Not surprised to get calls to pick up stranded riders when the ignition quit. The harmonic balancer chain had NO adjustment. When that went slack it made a horrendous racket. We lost every dollar we ever made on that model. Now in their marketing wisdom Japan decided to make a 500cc twin model. This had the first 4 valve production head at the time. It went well and handled well and the idea was that the owner could upgrade to the bigger 750. Well that was all fair and well until he discovered that the 750 was being dumped. Then as he continued on his way with the 500 after about 25000kms the head gasket would leak and then blow.

And heres where Yamaha had another technical problem. The head could not be skimmed so a whole new replacement head was neccesary. If you had gone beyond warranty you were up for big bucks. We had a lot of angry customers who told us they would never buy another Yamaha again. It was only the excellent RD 2 strokes and DT trail bike range that kept the business going.

So Carbonfibre the moral of the story is this - Even the Japs screwed up but they had the cash to cover these mistakes and made their money on lots of small commuter bikes which rightfully were a market success.

If you want I can tell you the sad story of the Suzuki RE Wankel.
 
Lost another hours ' tripe rightong ' :oops: :p . Bridgeing the Gap . Summing it up . Lofting hay bales , fencing , ' adequate ' sustanance. and ' No Fear ' ( a common phrase = Oh Really ( we knew that ) ). 14 stone , looks tubby . looks can be decieveing .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efrZdbDh5tk

Would the Trident have done a 100 mph lap of the I.o.M. , before the war . Half the track unsealed ? ? ?

Given that IF it were clay , and most of the loose stones thrown of the line in practise . ( see ' Rally ' or Tyres howling on Dirt at speedway ) I think he WOULD have . ( not ' could ' , WOULD . ) " whadda ya get er up to in the George " ? " 125 '
Whaddle she do ? " 125 " .( he might need a ' works ' engine that'd do 145 , with the Cams & the like )

Town had been two days journey when his mother was a Girl . She thought His new bike was ok ," see , I told ya Mum " .

" Yea , Half an hour , its all right I guess " Measured 50 miles to the gate . Kilometer from there to the shed .
Washed & seated for Grace , before lunch at Twelve . So 25 / 26 minutes .

Knew it happened , I was there . Didnt believe it myself , at the time . No way . rediculous .Reject , having my leg pulled .INDEED .

In the Intl Ralley the two top would bounce onto the 50 Ft Concrete bridge , pull of 40 mph with the traction from the landing , & flick left at 60. A matter of timeing .( a bank on the outside concrette abuttments and a river ) . Oh Goodie . FUN . :mrgreen:

A friend of my Brothers had Lived down country before his Air N.Z. apprenticeship. Said He and the Fynn Boys used to race around the block , when they were 15 / 16 . ( Split Enz - Band ) Old Triumph 650s , Gravle Road . 5 miles ' Round the Block ' , some lady getting shirty about the dust and her washing . He did ' To the coast ' 90 miles , on his 65 Thunderbird , . Had a watch . One Hour .
( Inside an Hour , wouldnt count if it was over . Just ' out for a run ' on a nice summers day' , not throttle on the stop , timed .
 
Carbonfibre said:
Not sure whether or not the Z1 was ever a bike that was used for enduro racing............maybe a bit on the heavy side? In endurance racing though Z1 powered bikes were probably the most successful ever used, easily able to run for 24 hours most of the time almost flat out.

Endurance racing is a very good measure of the attributes of a road going machine, and anything which handles and goes well enough to succeed here is a very good choice for anyone looking for a road going machine suitable for riding very fast.
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Thats a bit of a blanket statement, although not a bike Mazda had a very very good endurance car, namely the 787B, you will be able to find an ASME (cant quite remember what the acronym is) paper detailing a teardown of this engine after the LeMans 24hr, the general conclusion was that the engine looked exactly the same as it did when it went together yet we all know the problems Mazda had with similar engines in road going cars....
 
gory said:
Oh shit, it's like a train wreck - I have the ignore enabled, but still cannot help but look at the inane, irrelevany, ignorant, repeated almost daily, wish I could stop, glad I am not sitting next to him in a bar, drivel CF writes, help me......please help me......!
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Maybe you could post your own views as to why the Brit bike industry failed? In my view head in the sand attitude in relation to the Japanese, and continued reliance on bikes whose basic design dated back to the 30/40s, were big factors in its demise.
 
ML said:
I think you have made your point several time over and over and over. Now for a reality check.

In the early 70's I used to work for the West Australian state importer of Yamaha. At the time the XS650 twin had built a good if somehat bland reputation. It had an exceptional motor and here is how if came about - In 1967 Yamaha Japan brought in a BSA A65 a Triumph T120 and a Norton Atlas. The examined all of the features and derived the XS1 a pretty decent machine particulary the motor but the frame suspension and brakes were mediocre. Chrome and paint was inferior but it was priced well and sold OK. It had no electric start it vibrated and in general was seen as a less of sporting machine compared to the hotter British twins which is true. Yamaha made its success from a breed of potent 250 and 350 tw0 strokes that gave owners a trade in path once they had graduated from a junior drivers license. There was no comparable British small bike.

When the Honda CB750 came out everything changed. Commandos and Rocket 3s and Tridents were the big bikes of the day. Good 650 Bonnies beat Honda 4s in local production races and Yamaha had nothing in those stakes the XS650 was just not competitive. They improved and refined the XS650 I remember Percy Tait of Triumph production racing fame was contracted by Yamaha to help redesign the XS650B frame. They could not afford the time to retool the chassis line so they made 37 mods to the existing frame and that did take the hinge out of the middle and by 1974 it was a pretty good allround bike.

But Yamaha also had nothing in the muscle bike stakes so they had rapidly developed the XS750 twin as the new contender. My God what a heap of shit. At one time we had 9 motors on the shop floor all waiting for warranty replacements. The motors overheated and leaked oil. Into the points housing! Not surprised to get calls to pick up stranded riders when the ignition quit. The harmonic balancer chain had NO adjustment. When that went slack it made a horrendous racket. We lost every dollar we ever made on that model. Now in their marketing wisdom Japan decided to make a 500cc twin model. This had the first 4 valve production head at the time. It went well and handled well and the idea was that the owner could upgrade to the bigger 750. Well that was all fair and well until he discovered that the 750 was being dumped. Then as he continued on his way with the 500 after about 25000kms the head gasket would leak and then blow.

And heres where Yamaha had another technical problem. The head could not be skimmed so a whole new replacement head was neccesary. If you had gone beyond warranty you were up for big bucks. We had a lot of angry customers who told us they would never buy another Yamaha again. It was only the excellent RD 2 strokes and DT trail bike range that kept the business going.

So Carbonfibre the moral of the story is this - Even the Japs screwed up but they had the cash to cover these mistakes and made their money on lots of small commuter bikes which rightfully were a market success.

If you want I can tell you the sad story of the Suzuki RE Wankel.
Click to expand...

Sure the Japs screwed up, but as they had the money to move on and develop new and improved products, they had no need to rely on bikes whose basic design was at the time they were introduced more than 30 years out of date!

And some Jap engineering was certainly half arsed, but when you look at the last offerings from the once great Brit manufacturers in the 70s, it seems to me that all of these bikes came with half arsed engineering features, which mainly seemed to be related to making something from the 30/40s viable and up to the minute in the 70s................
 
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