How exactly do you date a commando?

baz

baz

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A friend has a commando that's never had a vin plate
He wants to date his bike so he can stamp the date on the new vin plate
His v5 registration only gives the date it was registered
It was registered on the 21/03/74 and the frame number is 1000@@
Engine 2056@@
Anyone know how to get the month and year date ?
I've blocked the last two digits of these numbers
 
baz said:
the frame number is 1000@@
Click to expand...

The frame number should be on the missing certification plate and would normally be the same as the engine number.

baz said:
Engine 2056@@
Anyone know how to get the month and year date ?
Click to expand...

2056@@ should make it around the middle of 1972 (and a 750) but the actual month isn't likely to be known or recorded anywhere.
 
Last edited:
L.A.B. said:
The frame number should be on the missing certification plate and would normally be the same as the engine number.



2056@@ should make it around the middle of 1972 (and a 750) but the actual month isn't likely to be known or recorded anywhere.
Click to expand...
Yep he knows the engine has been changed
It's been changed more than once since the 80s
And he has the full frame number on the v5
But I didn't want to put the full number on the net
Because he now lives in France and is selling the bike he needs to fill the date of manufacture on the vin plate
 
baz said:
And he has the full frame number on the v5
But I didn't want to put the full number on the net
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you mean either the "frame" number is 1000@@ or it isn't (obviously if the engine has been changed then the frame isn't necessarily from 1972) and anyway 1000@@ (whatever the last two digits are) isn't a normal frame number.
 
The Greg Marsh commando survey would have the engine around Feb March 1972. Probably March.

Any chance the 100*** is a latter stamped F series type no??? This would be more aligned with a 74 date registration

Are you after the engine date of manufacture or the frame? As LAB said the 1000*** number as described is not Norton.
 
Last edited:
baz said:
A friend has a commando that's never had a vin plate
He wants to date his bike so he can stamp the date on the new vin plate
His v5 registration only gives the date it was registered
It was registered on the 21/03/74 and the frame number is 1000@@
Engine 2056@@
Anyone know how to get the month and year date ?
I've blocked the last two digits of these numbers
Click to expand...
You can pay AN for the dispatch record but any number stamped into the frame will have no meaning. The engine number would match the certification label on bikes in the 2xxxxx range. When you say the "frame number" what exactly are you talking about? The very early Commandos had a number stamped in the frame but no certification label. The rest of the 750s and early 850s had no frame number but did have the certification label. Then a frame number was added to 850s and was in no discernible order. Finally part way into the MKIII production the engine, certification label, and frame number were the same (at least the last 6 numbers).

From dispatch records:
204428 2nd built/dispatched on March 10, 1972
204511 29th built/dispatched on March 3, 1972
204667 10th built/dispatched on March 3, 1972
204786 42nd built/dispatched on April 4, 1972
Notice out of order, not typos!

The records format and what they contained changed over time, so I don't know if the dispatch records in 1972 had the built or dispatch date. I have info on a lot of bikes in the range but only these have dispatch record data.

Survey of Existing Vintage Norton Commandos - GME

Ongoing Norton Commando Survey of Serial Numbers, Dates and Related Information
gregmarsh.com
 
As it's known that the engine doesn't match the frame then it would be something of a 'con' to stamp the plate with the engine number's dispatch date although I suppose it would do but I can't see why stamping the date would be necessary but maybe France is different.
 
As I understand it the original frame, engine and gearbox all have the same number. My bike certainly does. If the frame has no plate and the motor has been changed is the gearbox original? If it is that will give you the original frame number which you could use to get the correct information.
 
marshg246 said:
You can pay AN for the dispatch record but any number stamped into the frame will have no meaning. The engine number would match the certification label on bikes in the 2xxxxx range. When you say the "frame number" what exactly are you talking about? The very early Commandos had a number stamped in the frame but no certification label. The rest of the 750s and early 850s had no frame number but did have the certification label. Then a frame number was added to 850s and was in no discernible order. Finally part way into the MKIII production the engine, certification label, and frame number were the same (at least the last 6 numbers).

From dispatch records:
204428 2nd built/dispatched on March 10, 1972
204511 29th built/dispatched on March 3, 1972
204667 10th built/dispatched on March 3, 1972
204786 42nd built/dispatched on April 4, 1972
Notice out of order, not typos!

The records format and what they contained changed over time, so I don't know if the dispatch records in 1972 had the built or dispatch date. I have info on a lot of bikes in the range but only these have dispatch record data.

Survey of Existing Vintage Norton Commandos - GME

Ongoing Norton Commando Survey of Serial Numbers, Dates and Related Information
gregmarsh.com
Click to expand...
There's no number on the frame as far as I know and the vin plate is missing as many were when they fell off
the chassis number is recorded on the v5 (registration document)
 
L.A.B. said:
As it's known that the engine doesn't match the frame then it would be something of a 'con' to stamp the plate with the engine number's dispatch date although I suppose it would do but I can't see why stamping the date would be necessary but maybe France is different.
Click to expand...
To register a vehicle "historic" in France it must have a manufacturers date
 
baz said:
There's no number on the frame as far as I know and the vin plate is missing as many were when they fell off
the chassis number is recorded on the v5 (registration document)
Click to expand...

So there is no number on the frame only on the V5. I would have thought the registration date on the V5 would be adequate proof. Many Commandos seem to have left the factory without a date stamp.

The Commando series began from serial 126125 in 1968. Any Norton that had a serial number in the 100000 range would have been from 1961/2 well before the Commando was produced.
 
baz said:
Yep he knows the engine has been changed
It's been changed more than once since the 80s
And he has the full frame number on the v5
But I didn't want to put the full number on the net
Because he now lives in France and is selling the bike he needs to fill the date of manufacture on the vin plate
Click to expand...
Hi, he could ask to the French NOC , to have a certificate of registration which will specify the date according to the number , the plus will be that it will be written in French and if I had understood well as he is living in France and want to sell his bike in France , that will make the things easier for both the buyer and seller , tell me and I could give you the details by PM , Pierre.
 
If it happens to be an 850 frame (as 750 production had ended by 1974) then it could potentially have a 100000 'frame' number (different to the plate number) but it should also have an (*850)*'F' prefix which was sometimes entered as the frame number on the document but as it was registered in 3/74 that 1000xx number doesn't seem to fit (too low) and there should be some evidence of this number stamped on the frame so I'm guessing that's not it but I thought I should mention it.
 
L.A.B. said:
If it happens to be an 850 frame (as 750 production had ended by 1974) then it could potentially have a 100000 'frame' number (different to the plate number) but it should also have an (*850)*'F' prefix which was sometimes entered as the frame number on the document but as it was registered in 3/74 that 1000xx number doesn't seem to fit (too low) and there should be some evidence of this number stamped on the frame so I'm guessing that's not it but I thought I should mention it.
Click to expand...
The frame may be stamped but unfortunately the previous owner had the frame nylon coated
It was a popular finish for a while back then
Where exactly would the stamping be ?
 
baz said:
Where exactly would the stamping be ?
Click to expand...
Post in thread 'Frame Number (2019)'
L.A.B.

Post in thread 'Frame Number (2019)'

Gadge said:
BTW - I didn't realise the frame may be stamped as well. Still trying to work out origins of my bike, can someone confirm where the stamped number might be?
Click to expand...

Usually on the RH side of the headstock and stamped similar to the example below.
Note that it is usually a non-matching 'F1xxxxx' number.

Frame Number (2019)


(Late 850 Mk3s often have a matching number without the 'F' see dynodave link below, for more information).

http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm
 
baz said:
There's no number on the frame as far as I know and the vin plate is missing as many were when they fell off
the chassis number is recorded on the v5 (registration document)
Click to expand...
Most bikes used the frame number as the VIN, Older Japanese bikes did not have matching engine and frame numbers and used the frame number. The MK3 Commando ( Like LAB shows) had a small stamped in frame number along with the red tag number and it was confusing in the USA the bikes could be titled with number for some reason .

(My MK3 uses the red tag /engine number, but I had a MK3 that used the frame number)

Whatever the bike was once registered with or titled would be my choice if it were in the USA.
You can use the March date 1972 . As that is as good a number as any and fits the engine VIN.
If it was a MK3 frame I would use a year of 3 /1974 as that is when the frame was used/ made.
I would look at how the OEM tags were stamped and what font and copy what an OEM tag looks like.
If you have a MK3 frame at least you have real factory numbers, and that makes it legit, IF the bike was never reported being stolen. But that is a whole other can of worms.

At one time I think it was Andover Norton? that would stamp a tag for you if you brought a tag from them and proved ownership of the bike. Check with Andover.
 
Carl H said:
The MK3 Commando ( Like LAB shows)
Click to expand...

The example in the picture (F106291) is from around March '74 going by dynodave's list therefore (F?)1000xx should be earlier although registered in March '74. This additional frame stamp began around the middle of 1973.


Carl H said:
If you have a MK3 frame at least you have real factory numbers, and that makes it legit,
Click to expand...

Carl H said:
If it was a MK3 frame I would use a year of 3 /1974 as that is when the frame was used/ made.
Click to expand...


As registered in March 1974 then it's too early to be a Mk3 frame.
 
L.A.B. said:
The example in the picture (F106291) is from around March '74 going by dynodave's list therefore (F?)1000xx should be earlier although registered in March '74. This additional frame stamp began around the middle of 1973.







As registered in March 1974 then it's too early to be a Mk3 frame.
Click to expand...
It's a while since I saw it but it's not a MK3 frame
It doesn't have a seat hinge
 

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