Hotting Up A MkIII

hobot said:

All the hops up listed are worth maybe 25% more power but if really serious then buy Bruce McGergor's proven tested long term Drouin and flat side carb he ran on his stock 850 which could give like 50+% more power if brave enough to load the blower hard enough with throttle snap whiplashes.

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I'm staying away from the blower idea hobot. I wouldn't want a Japo rider to see it. He might take his marbles and go home before we even start the run on the magic mile. This has gotta look like a "normal" Commando as much as possible. One that just seems to accelerate and go like nothing they have ever seen. I wouldn't even tell the boys at the pub what's inside it.

Phil

Alrighty then Phil sounds like you just want the same base line engine of Ms Peel's Maney Canaga Schimdt Dreer Norris Bore Tech Cryo-Pro Dicronite all black sleeper. With Drouin and water injection and plasma discharge ignition switched in I'll also switch out brass for a chartreuse Kryptonite gremlin bell. At some point ya might understand why my 2nd favorite motto is, after officially rid of a driver license to save the STATE the trouble so no numbers to report to insurance rate jumpers.
"The Rear Rules The Roost!"

phil yates said:

johntickle said:

I used to have a 2S cam in combination with a flowed RH10 head (by the late Fred Barlow) and standard pistons. OK but not spectacular performance. Not enough compression I guess.
Go for Maney pistons or JS pistons/rods, a good steel US made camshaft (Megacycle/Johnson/Web) and a mild flow job on the head. Try to obtain an RH10 head with 30 mm ports. Big valves not needed for road use. Depending on the camshaft you could get away with .060" oversize Black Diamond inlet valves.

Click to expand...

I will be interested to hear what Don Hoff at Baxter's suggests. But all sounds good.
I don't want any bastard beating me off the lights. 12T sprocket is actually feasible.
It will be hard keeping the front wheel on the ground.

Phil

Click to expand...

Do you really believe that lowering the primary drive ratio would make your bike accelerate quicker while it's got that heavy flywheel ? You are more likely to bend the mainshaft in the gearbox. If you want it to take off quicker, fit a 5 or 6 speed close box, and learn how to use it. The first few feet as you leave a set of traffic lights will never be really quick with a commando. However if you have that heavy flywheel wound up, and each race-change type gearshift keeps the engine at it's peak torque .... ?

phil yates said:

If I could get it pulling times in the 10's I'd be real happy. Phil

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That might be a little bit greedy Phil, because you'd have to be pulling ~125-130 mph to do that and that might be a bit of a stretch. You'd be happy with the reliability of your 11.8 sec bike, but might be disappointed with the longevity of the 10 sec bike. We need to keep this conversation and undertaking in proper perspective. The thought of a fire breathing 11.8 sec Norton makes my jaw drop and I am in awe, yet at the same time the majority of late model 600 to 1200 cc Jap performance bikes are considerably quicker and faster.

The link below provides 1/4 mi times of many late style bikes grouped by brand. Was interesting to note that of the Kawis, their 650 Ninja vertical twin (presently a popular Pro Flat Track engine, and in my opinion the best refinement to date of a vertical twin) was one of their slowest offerings at 12.3 sec and 108 mph. But poked and stroked to 750 cc will make 100 HP (2.2 HP/cu in) and would run a little better than a 12.3.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers

All this and an electric starter.

hobot said:

Alrighty then Phil sounds like you just want the same base line engine of Ms Peel's Maney Canaga Schimdt Dreer Norris Bore Tech Cryo-Pro Dicronite all black sleeper. With Drouin and water injection and plasma discharge ignition switched in I'll also switch out brass for a chartreuse Kryptonite gremlin bell. At some point ya might understand why my 2nd favorite motto is, after officially rid of a driver license to save the STATE the trouble so no numbers to report to insurance rate jumpers.
"The Rear Rules The Roost!"

Click to expand...

Sounds good hobot.
I'll contact you by PM and tell you also what happened re the farm flying incident. Trees in undercarriage? Not me sir!!
If you didn't laugh, you'd cry. But that's life in the fast lane.

Phil

I think you are smoking something fella....I track dayed one of these with 1 tooth smaller front, 1 tooth larger rear sprocket....

GSX-R750 ('96) 10.54 @ 133.5

No way is it the most potent 'modern' sports bike, but a Commando that can live with it would have the longevity of a dragonfly.....

It is not all going to be about building the motor either, but you need a transmission too.....

I am building a race motor with straight through exhaust and long inlets and I am going to struggle to get the numbers you guys think is 'streetable'....numbers that the works could get from a full house F750 racer....

Hop up by all means, but get real....sooner or later you will realise that plenty have been on the path before you, and most bear the scars....

If you want a drag racer get one, otherwise just enjoy what you got and get one nicely pepped up....

acotrel said:

phil yates said:

johntickle said:

I used to have a 2S cam in combination with a flowed RH10 head (by the late Fred Barlow) and standard pistons. OK but not spectacular performance. Not enough compression I guess.
Go for Maney pistons or JS pistons/rods, a good steel US made camshaft (Megacycle/Johnson/Web) and a mild flow job on the head. Try to obtain an RH10 head with 30 mm ports. Big valves not needed for road use. Depending on the camshaft you could get away with .060" oversize Black Diamond inlet valves.

Click to expand...

I will be interested to hear what Don Hoff at Baxter's suggests. But all sounds good.
I don't want any bastard beating me off the lights. 12T sprocket is actually feasible.
It will be hard keeping the front wheel on the ground.

Phil

Click to expand...

Do you really believe that lowering the primary drive ratio would make your bike accelerate quicker while it's got that heavy flywheel ? You are more likely to bend the mainshaft in the gearbox. If you want it to take off quicker, fit a 5 or 6 speed close box, and learn how to use it. The first few feet as you leave a set of traffic lights will never be really quick with a commando. However if you have that heavy flywheel wound up, and each race-change type gearshift keeps the engine at it's peak torque .... ?

Click to expand...

acetrol
No, not on its own and in reality 20T or even higher might well be better, depending on power output. A 12T did have a smiley next to it. A 5 speed box would be more than ample with the torque of the 850 motor, so I will definitely look at that along with lighter pistons, flywheel maybe (not sure on this) and as many upgrades and mods as I want to add into it without blowing it to pieces every 100 miles.

I won't be taking it to the drag strip for serious comparison with modern 1200 etc Japo's. But I'll bet they'll get a serious shock down at the lights of the Mittagong main drag, and out on the magic mile for that matter.

Rather than just duplicate what I already have, but in BRG, I was thinking of making this one a different machine altogether, a bit of a project. Don't have much I have to spend money on these days. Horrid wife demanding bigger and better houses and farms all behind me etc. So if I spend even over $30,000 on this new baby, so what? Guys pay lots more than that on many other toys. Yachts for example. Maybe even $40,000, I don't really care. It would be nice to have the very best out there and it is still an investment at the end of the day.

So I am taking all this offered information on board with great interest and will confer with Don Hoff in Iowa, the builder. This is going to be a very very special Commando.

Phil

No way is it the most potent 'modern' sports bike, but a Commando that can live with it would have the longevity of a dragonfly.....

Click to expand...

Well I'm betting that Peel is bullet proof and can assure ya that ya mid 10 sec 1/4"s were possible in the late 60's Norton 750's but not on regular street tire rear. Acceleration is like a hard drug addiction, takes more and more to keep the withdrawals away. Around about 4 lb per hp ya stop worrying about where to hit the ton+ to having to resist doing it everywhere.

WZ507 said:

phil yates said:

If I could get it pulling times in the 10's I'd be real happy. Phil

Click to expand...

That might be a little bit greedy Phil, because you'd have to be pulling ~125-130 mph to do that and that might be a bit of a stretch. You'd be happy with the reliability of your 11.8 sec bike, but might be disappointed with the longevity of the 10 sec bike. We need to keep this conversation and undertaking in proper perspective. The thought of a fire breathing 11.8 sec Norton makes my jaw drop and I am in awe, yet at the same time the majority of late model 600 to 1200 cc Jap performance bikes are considerably quicker and faster.

The link below provides 1/4 mi times of many late style bikes grouped by brand. Was interesting to note that of the Kawis, their 650 Ninja vertical twin (presently a popular Pro Flat Track engine, and in my opinion the best refinement to date of a vertical twin) was one of their slowest offerings at 12.3 sec and 108 mph. But poked and stroked to 750 cc will make 100 HP (2.2 HP/cu in) and would run a little better than a 12.3.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/sportbike-performance-numbers

Click to expand...

I'm all ears WZ. I won't ever be timing it anyway. So what the end result will be, well will be. But it is going to go an awful lot faster than a standard MkIII and getting it to its peak performance will be a lot of fun. Most of the Japo riders around here don't know how to ride anyway.

Phil

SteveA said:

I think you are smoking something fella....I track dayed one of these with 1 tooth smaller front, 1 tooth larger rear sprocket....

GSX-R750 ('96) 10.54 @ 133.5

No way is it the most potent 'modern' sports bike, but a Commando that can live with it would have the longevity of a dragonfly.....

It is not all going to be about building the motor either, but you need a transmission too.....

I am building a race motor with straight through exhaust and long inlets and I am going to struggle to get the numbers you guys think is 'streetable'....numbers that the works could get from a full house F750 racer....

Hop up by all means, but get real....sooner or later you will realise that plenty have been on the path before you, and most bear the scars....

If you want a drag racer get one, otherwise just enjoy what you got and get one nicely pepped up....

Click to expand...

I stress again, you won't see this BRG Fastback at the drag strip. I'm not spending this much money just to blow it to pieces at the track. It will indeed be pepped up, as far as I can take it within reason and not sacrificing reliability too badly. My red standard MkIII will continue as my every day hack and country tourer. But I'll gather a few bets at the coffee shop and gay bar, then line this bird up next day and let's see what the poofters can do. Especially with a few corners thrown in.

It won't be "The World's Fastest Indian" in Norton form, but it is going to be a seriously fast one. The standing times mentioned were from some of the other guys, I don't know (nor really care) what it can/will achieve. I won't be stripping starter motor etc off to minimise weight. It still has to be an acceptable ride machine.

Phil

pete.v said:

All this and an electric starter.

Click to expand...

Well, why not Pete?
So long as the compression isn't so high the starter can't turn the motor, I certainly won't be removing it. The core machine is a MkIII so is going to come with some added weight yes. But this is not serious racing Pete.

Phil

phil yates said:

pete.v said:

All this and an electric starter.

Click to expand...

Well, why not Pete?
So long as the compression isn't so high the starter can't turn the motor, I certainly won't be removing it. The core machine is a MkIII so is going to come with some added weight yes. But this is not serious racing Pete.

Phil

Click to expand...

Who not a Seeley/Maney/Commando with no starter. Since you don't/won't be working on these bike anyhow, I assume Jenny will be following close with a trailer and could easily add a rear wheel roller starter to the inventory.

pete.v said:

phil yates said:

pete.v said:

All this and an electric starter.

Click to expand...

Well, why not Pete?
So long as the compression isn't so high the starter can't turn the motor, I certainly won't be removing it. The core machine is a MkIII so is going to come with some added weight yes. But this is not serious racing Pete.

Phil

Click to expand...

Who not a Seeley/Maney/Commando with no starter. Since you don't/won't be working on these bike anyhow, I assume Jenny will be following close with a trailer and could easily add a rear wheel roller starter to the inventory.

Click to expand...

It has to be registrable Pete, or I can't ride it. I think detractors of the MkIII often have not in fact ever even ridden one. That is a good starting point for constructive criticism, not reflecting that at you at all Pete. I know you really really WANT one.
On its way, wait by the mail box!

If you are out track racing, obviously the MkIII would carry weight items you would want to strip off. But I just want to give the local lads a serious fright, and myself when I wind the throttle open.

Phil

Where did you go Pete?
I just responded to your post and it's vanished.

Or have you taken it back home for modification?
I'm heading off to Sydney for a friend's 90th birthday lunch.
I plan to still be on a Norton then.

Cheers
Phil

SteveA said:

I think you are smoking something fella....I track dayed one of these with 1 tooth smaller front, 1 tooth larger rear sprocket....

GSX-R750 ('96) 10.54 @ 133.5

No way is it the most potent 'modern' sports bike, but a Commando that can live with it would have the longevity of a dragonfly.....

It is not all going to be about building the motor either, but you need a transmission too.....

I am building a race motor with straight through exhaust and long inlets and I am going to struggle to get the numbers you guys think is 'streetable'....numbers that the works could get from a full house F750 racer....

Hop up by all means, but get real....sooner or later you will realise that plenty have been on the path before you, and most bear the scars....

If you want a drag racer get one, otherwise just enjoy what you got and get one nicely pepped up....

Click to expand...

A voice of reason. Sorry to rain on the parade but what you guys have been talking about is not a street bike and won't last long. Most of the parts in the drive train will be torn to shreds if you could even get close to the HP numbers your talking about. With a Mikuni no less...sorry. You could build a streetable sleeper but it would not be anything like what's being discussed here.

the best way to make your norton faster, and in fact the rest of your bikes too, is to exercise and include a few more salads on the diet - :shock:

bet 90% of the grey breads here that go on and on about what their going to do to make there bike a hot rod (which would still be smoked by a new'ish 500cc bike) are dragging around a gut that would make ole santa proud and the strike fear into the owners of the all you can eat buffet

and just think, it will help you live longer too - to enjoy your bikes longer!

mikegray660 said:

bet 90% of the grey breads here that go on and on about what their going to do to make there bike a hot rod (which would still be smoked by a new'ish 500cc bike)

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I have a 2009 500cc parallel twin that will do circles around the Norton...but then it doesn't sound cool or look as nice Has 6 gears so your never looking for those missing ones Didn't cost me $10K to build the engine either...but Phil has something to prove...and I think he will do it too.

ready-race-finally-t17286.html?hilit=Ready%20to%20race#p214543

This netted me 65 BHP with 32 mm AMAL Concentric Premiers on standard manifolds
Regards Mike

Mike is Booking500? Mean but artful lightened go fast craft. Just wondering if any these hot rods take some effort for pilots to stay on in their best acceleration zone?