Help needed with e start on MK 3

Hi All ,,

I am hoping that someone out there can help me with a problem I am having with my MK 3 Commando.. I had it shipped from the US earlier this year and the last owner informed me the electric start does not function as the starter case was empty of parts, only being used to seal the hole.. I have been going over the bike since its arrival repairing and replacing parts as needed.. I sourced one of the 4 pole starter conversions and fitted it up, on a test turn over I found it turned the motor over at a really good rate but I thought it sounded a little noisy.. I am almost at the stage of being able to test run the engine, I gave it a few kicks today on the kick start lever and noticed it still made the same sort of dry metal to metal wurring sound, only slower..

I have never owned a MK 3 so I am un-awear of how they should sound in this department, I do own a T160 Triumph that I electric start without any noise like the one this prestolite system is making.. I know Norton uses some sort of a starter (sprag) clutch unit inside the primary case, could this sprag clutch be in trouble making the noise ?? .. I removed the 4 pole starter this afternoon and fitted the empty case housing again, I gave it a couple of good kicks on the kick starter and the noise is gone! .. I bench tested the 4 pole starter and it spun over without any noise..

I would certainly appreciate any thoughts other members might have on this noise.

Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul ,
this is hard as only you know the noises it is making . I do not think the prestolite starter is an issue they spin or do not there are only plain bush bearings so your noise is probably from the starter gear train , it will give a ringing sound after shut down these are the drive gear freewheeling as it stops the engine . Check that the starter bush in the inside primary case is present if the engine turns over maybe the back fire overload device is not set correct , give us a recorded sound and maybe can home in on it better. Check the Old Brits site for the correct instalation on electric start and adjustments . Under normal running the only noise should be the bike kicking over , however be aware of the slight noise on turning off the engine this is normal ,Dave .

There is an automatic primary chain tensioner fed with oil from inside the case which loses its prime over time and gives a slack primary chain, maybe the noise you hear is the chain rubbing on the cases.

nznorton said:

I gave it a few kicks today on the kick start lever and noticed it still made the same sort of dry metal to metal wurring sound, only slower..

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It shouldn't really be making a whirring noise during kickstarting, therefore I suggest you remove the primary cover and see if any of the starter motor drive gears rotate when the kickstarter is operated? If so, then the sprag could fitted the wrong way around or there could be a problem with the sprag unit as the sprag is a known weak point in the system.


http://www.oldbritts.com/e_start_gears.html
http://www.oldbritts.com/e_start_backfire.html

May not need to remove the primary transmission cover to diagnose.
Take the spark plugs out so she can't fire and hurt you or herself.
With the starter motor removed you will be able to see the idler that the starter pinion engages.
It may be possible to rotate that idler by hand in one direction and not the other. Is the direction correct? Sprag in backwards?
You could clean and place a magic marker line on the face as a reference and watch it while you rotate the kickstarter.
Rotating the kick starter should not forcefully rotate the idler.
You can be sure to remove the spark plugs, engage a gear and rotate the rear wheel, this will give the abilty to rotate against the starter gear train in both clock directions. The engine should only resist in one direction, which is it?
All the best

1st up I would like to give a big thanks to Dave, L.A.B and AntrimMan for taking the time to reply .. I have a question for AntrimMan, I have included an image of what I take the idler gear to be (well I hope I have as I have not uploaded from the new photo bucket before) if this is the gear you speak of which way should it free wheel when looking at it, left or right ? .. I will remove the starter dummy on Thursday and go through what you have suggested and get back to you. I know the little idler was going round when I was kicking the motor over on the kick start lever ..







I have another question, after cleaning up and refitting a new tire to the rear wheel I noticed a noise coming from inside the hub when rolling the wheel round, sounds like somthing inside loose and rattling about .. any thoughts on that one ?

Cheers
Paul

Paul ,
with the bike on the main stand put into neutral and rotate the rear wheel by hand it could be the rubbers in the cush drive not seated correctly may also be out of line to main sproket check this to pinpoint your noise hope it helps Dave .

nznorton said:

I have included an image of what I take the idler gear to be (well I hope I have as I have not uploaded from the new photo bucket before) if this is the gear you speak of which way should it free wheel when looking at it, left or right ?

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It should rotate freely in the anticlockwise direction when viewed from the direction of your photo.

nznorton said:

after cleaning up and refitting a new tire to the rear wheel I noticed a noise coming from inside the hub when rolling the wheel round, sounds like somthing inside loose and rattling about

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That rattling sound is almost certainly the 'Backplate' behind the cush drive (item [17], part 064810, in the link below) and yes, it often makes that noise-it's nothing to worry about, but if it bothers you, then unscrew the lockring*, remove the cush drive assembly and stick the plate to the hub with a few dabs of silicone sealant.

http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/Norton% ... 23&Part=17

*(Note that some versions of 850 MkIII factory manuals say the hub lockring is LEFT HAND thread which is wrong, while other factory versions state that it's normal RIGHT HAND thread)

The noise within the rear hub...
as L.A.B. states, the plate is the most likely culprit, believe him, he is a typing encyclopedia.
That particular noise cannot be heard above all the others when under way.
Remedy that with the sticky and should the noise persist unabated when assembled and rolling on the floor, look farther.

The ES idler...
yes, that's it in your snap.
Be sure the idler spindle in pushed home into the inner chain case as the starter end cap normally does this but has been removed in your case.
This will ensure the gear remains meshed and avoids false indications.
Don't forget the o-ring on the drive end cap when putting the starter motor back in place.

I do see a few oh-oh's in that photo though.
The starter retention screw clearance hole located at 8:00 o'clock appears to be occupied. There are a total of three (3) 1/4-20 screws that retain the starter motor to the inner chain case.
Two shorter than the 3" long one. All three pass through the inner chain case and screw into the starter drive end cap. Perhaps the screw I see there is only resting in the hole and not a cause for concern.
There appears to be gobs of sealant on the crank case vertical joining faces. Not factory, they were much neater that that. Someone has been in there.
I can see dismantling the primary in your near future. While speaking of sealant, pay attention to the engine oil supply, there are posts that indicate blockage of small passages by errant sealer. Research this if the suggestion bothers you.
Please forgive my critical nature, my only intentions are to assist.
The red coloured lead to the crankcase is OEM and fairly light gauge. Dyno Dave offers a replacement set much heavier than original. Heavier leads are a functional upgrade with the 4-field 4-brush starter motor.
All the Best.

AntrimMan said:

The starter retention screw clearance hole located at 8:00 o'clock appears to be occupied. There are a total of three (3) 1/4-20 screws that retain the starter motor to the inner chain case. Two shorter than the 3" long one. All three pass through the inner chain case and screw into the starter drive end cap. Perhaps the screw I see there is only resting in the hole and not a cause for concern.

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I also noticed that screw, I guessed from it's apparent diameter that it was resting in the hole?

The starter cables certainly need upgrading.

When I was mounting my tires recently, I noticed a tinkling sound like something was inside that made noise as I rolled the rim.
It turned out to be sand or metal filings within the rim lips rolling around. Harmless.
JD75

Thanks everyone for all the on going help with this MK3 project of mine.. Yes I will certainly upgrade the starter leads once I can get the starting sorted.. The bolt you can all see through the mounting hole is indeed the primary cover retaining screw just sitting there loose, the sealant showing in the case seams is not silicone bit some sort of dry sealant and as suggested must mean someone has been in there before..

OK I checked the idler gear for movement to the left and found I could not move it without using a screw driver to pry each tooth one by one to the left, the pressure needed was the same as moving it to the right with the same screw driver so if it should have moved with just my fingers then there must be something wrong inside the primary ?

I decided it was time to see if the motor would start up so I put my empty starter body back as a filler for the hole.. It took about 4 or 5 kicks and she fired into life, not bad after sitting for about a year, it idled with out a hint of smoke, I was so pleased the motor seemed fit and well, I opened the garage door and tried to put it into 1st , it would not select but after a few more prods it clicked in, I feed the clutch out and moved a few inches ,it jumped out of gear!, I had several more attempts and finally was able to move off, then horrors of horrors at about 15 mph the rear wheel locked up and I snaked all over the road, once under control I managed to select 2nd gear and carry on through the rest, I rode the bike for a further 10 miles without any locking of the rear wheel.. There seems to be a huge gap between 1st and 2nd and a real act to get 1st and have it stay there.. I would appreciate member’s thoughts on what may be wrong ..

I have added a couple of images on this MK3’s progress..





Cheers
Paul

nznorton said:

, then horrors of horrors at about 15 mph the rear wheel locked up and I snaked all over the road, once under control I managed to select 2nd gear and carry on through the rest, I rode the bike for a further 10 miles without any locking of the rear wheel.. There seems to be a huge gap between 1st and 2nd and a real act to get 1st and have it stay there.. I would appreciate member’s thoughts on what may be wrong ..

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Paul,

I would not ride the bike until you check the gearbox layshaft bearing. If you have already done it, ignore this post.

If not, this is symptomatic of a bad layshaft bearing (Serious risk of uncontrollable rear wheel lockup).

nznorton said:

OK I checked the idler gear for movement to the left and found I could not move it without using a screw driver to pry each tooth one by one to the left, the pressure needed was the same as moving it to the right with the same screw driver so if it should have moved with just my fingers then there must be something wrong inside the primary ?



then horrors of horrors at about 15 mph the rear wheel locked up and I snaked all over the road, once under control I managed to select 2nd gear and carry on through the rest, I rode the bike for a further 10 miles without any locking of the rear wheel..

Click to expand...

From your description of the difficulty you had turning the starter idler gear, the sprag was probably jammed, in that condition the crank could potentially motor the starter gear drive.
I think the wheel lock-up should have been sufficient warning for you to take it back into the garage. To ride it for 10 miles when there was an obvious starter gear fault I have to say seems rather foolhardy under the circumstances-so please don't get carried away by enthusiasm as running the bike for any distance could have ended in disaster, but hopefully the sprag did free off.

Difficulty engaging 1st gear can often be caused by clutch drag, (which is not surprising if the bike hadn't been run for some time) and jumping out of 1st is often caused by a worn layshaft 1st gear bush, however I seriously suggest you don't ride it further until you've checked over the primary drive.
As Nortiboy suggests, the drive side layshaft bearing should be checked and replaced with the upgrade roller or 6203TB ball if it is found to be a standard 6203 ball bearing.

sorry to hear of your further problems.
The gearbox is a separate issue from the E starter.
Since you have run the beast at speed you may not have helped the cause though.
The starter gear train is not intended for the rpm's encountered when driven from the crank. The shafts are not properly bearing-ed for this.
So, the gearbox needs looked into, the primary has to be opened, may as well remove the rocker covers and measure the cam lift too.
You will be an expert when finished, albeit somewhat lighter on cash.
It looks very nice in the photo's and worthwhile of your continuing efforts.
All the best.

Ohhh boy that’s not what one wants to hear about a project nearing completion, I guess you will all be able tell from my mistake in riding this thing that I am not very good on the mechanical side of things, Ok to strip to the frame and rebuild cosmetically but I have never really gone inside motors.. The clutch actually had no drag it just seemed as though the shift had bottomed before being able to click correctly into 1st,, the bike was purchased from the original owners son and has only 26,000 miles on the clock .. I had foolishly thought gearbox problems had been solved by these MK3 models ?





Looks as though I had better dust off the old MK2 for this summer and do some mechanical learning on the MK3 over our next winter.. I am knocking at the door of 60 now so I was looking forward to an electric start to help out this aging body of mine, mmm them’s the breaks as they say ..

Cheers
Paul
:?

nznorton said:

Looks as though I had better dust off the old MK2 for this summer and do some mechanical learning on the MK3 over our next winter.. I am knocking at the door of 60 now so I was looking forward to an electric start to help out this aging body of mine, mmm them’s the breaks as they say ..

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You could fit an Alton or Old Britts electric starter kit to the Mk2, then you wouldn't need the Mk3?

L.A.B. said:

You could fit an Alton or Old Britts electric starter kit to the Mk2, then you wouldn't need the Mk3?

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Alton also has a kit to fix the problems with the MK3, it should be available in limited quantities as I am typing

Jean

..............."Alton also has a kit to fix the problems with the MK3, it should be available in limited quantities as I am typing"

Jean..............that's good to know, thanks Jean. Cj

Hi,,

That new alton kit is starting to sound pretty darn good ! .. In regards to my locked up back wheel problem, as a gearbox novice I have been going over my factory MK3 manual and correct me if I am wrong but it looks as though I will not need to remove the gearbox from the bike to replace this faulty lay shaft bearing, is it the bearing listed in my parts manual as #040100, I see the numbers mentioned here on the forum are for original, #6203 and for the upgrade #6203TB ? .. Can someone explain why the original bearing can lock up the back wheel and then come right again for the next few miles, I did read something about this problem years ago but I thought it had been sorted out for the MK3 models (I seem to have lost the artical)..

Cheers for the on going help
Paul