Heat waves of destruction?

Riding in heat wave don't really concern me on Norton over heating about no matter how hard I can press hi fuel burning loads, I'm more likely to melt away in hair drier like breeze. But was feeling around engine on the fly to feel how much hot blast is directed right at the air box to point its too hot to touch long. Carb bowls almost cool and manifoid mildly warn. Definitely a power robbing detonation prone feature.

Anywho made me wonder about a S&M reviewing of what happens to over heated Norton dt various reasons. I absolutely don't believe one can over heat a Commando just sitting enclosed in reflective wall wind blocker in 115'F direct sunlight idling 900-1000 ish rpm. I've monitored CHT, EGT and Oil tank bottom so if your Cdo is at risk just sitting stuck in summer traffic then something is very bad wrong and soon will destruct regardless if run much further no matter the speed.

Dang, that really is a synchronistic steam-punk!
One of the concerns with the F 750 J.P.N. monococque was the enclosed mill cooking [at Daytona] didnt mind the cooler weather in old Blighty, but then Cal Rayborn could only get real power out of his iron XR 750 over there too.I recall taking an iron H-D Sportster for a fang in 40 degree [C- `bout 100 F] summer heat, had to feel sorry for it pinging,wheezing,rattling, `til it burnt my leg with its oil tank!, so I handed it back..

Oh cool, yes the enclosed monococque would be fit to discuss. Did it suffer power loss or faster wear or even heat failure? What might of let go or seized first? I know a Combat can run normal temps with less than a quart of oil at 55 mph if not giving it the gun much. A hopped up iron barrel sportster friend told me yesterday that he could not run it in triple digit heat or at risk to seize boiling its oil off and couldn't handle much city traffic sitting or stuff distorted and destructed. I've seen some Harleys with a fan that blows between the jugs for slow parade use I guess.

Worth considering internal water cooling?
A power jet type carb unit-fed H2O from a discrete [main frame spine] tank?
Or an inlet tract injected/metered spray fired by a throttle [WFO] switch?

J.A.W. you keep jumping orbitals beyond my subject line scope. I was only hoping for failure modes and causes to consider in plain air cooled Commando type engines. Older racers mentioned heat failures of several ways, just lost power to lost cases. I did btu figures for stock Combat to Ms Peel blown big block to get like 3'x's more heat to dump. Roughly power to wheel uses up 1/3, heat blown out pipes another 1/3 and friction inside the rest of it. For short 1/4 sprints I'd pack Peel head and manifold in dry ice before a run. For salt flat or standing mile runs she'll have water spray outside. In both events she already provided with water and methanol spray inter-cooling from phase change,which means I can't have pure water mist-vapor but many size drops so some evaporate inside combustion chamber as well as on the way into it. I've looked into heat pipes but most are gravity and vibration sensitive and those that ain't wouldn't fit space or my wallet.

Still someday put a un-gloved hand down behind barrel and feel the heat waves constantly blasting the intake parts. It will not be a pleasant finding if any study of the cool air intakes benefits. Ms Peel's intake will be off to side of engine with scoop that both funnels air in and keeps separate from engine heated air.

Interesting, many of these issues were considered by the makers of aircraft piston engines before turbines took over, seeking +ve power increases & balance of function/complexity/reliability. I recall one remark along the lines that although water is heavy to loft about the power gains from both latent heat of evaporation & the catalytic synergy of the breakdown into hydrogen & oxygen during combustion actually allowed an increase in range through higher maximum continous power out-put/speed.
Alternatively, how about plumbing that Commando backbone for a CO2 supply to spray on hot spots if critical temps are being risked?

J.A.W.
Interesting, many of these issues were considered by the makers of aircraft piston engines before turbines took over, seeking +ve power increases & balance of function/complexity/reliability. I recall one remark along the lines that although water is heavy to loft about the power gains from both latent heat of evaporation & the catalytic synergy of the breakdown into hydrogen & oxygen during combustion actually allowed an increase in range through higher maximum continous power out-put/speed.
Alternatively, how about plumbing that Commando backbone for a CO2 supply to spray on hot spots if critical temps are being risked?

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Boy Howdy did ya just gain discussion respect with that bomb shell of understanding. You are the 1st one to mention the chemistry catalyst and actual burning of disassociated water principles in combustion. The water clusters and radicals also absorb the IR photons from reaching and heating the more reactive fuel molecules so delays their combustion till the big slower guys are water catalyzed and heat fractionated o ignite more at once. This not the direction I intended this post to go but then again I'm known for just taking off with stranger into new trips on Commandos.

Ricardo is the father of combustion turbulence and water for more power pressure. Up to 50^% water can replace fuel and not have to back off maximum pressure spark advance, ie: more power on same fuel octane w/o detonation and less heat stress to boot.

Peel's spine-frame is oil tank system, air tank is in swing arm. CO2 could be strapped on and already considered to cool off for NOS injection over kill. NOS is another thank to strap on though. SCUBA Cdo might be her behind my back nic name as a yellow submarine is a distinct feature.

Since i have your serious attention on nature of our btu's, please check my off the cuff math here... and respond there as this is just for minor normal Norton heat issues.
hot-heads-btu-the-max-t9176.html

Kevin Cameron wrote a technical essay 'Breeding Improves the Race', wherein he goes through developments in bike racing tech including discussion on carbs, combustion, piston/ring design, cooling & etc.
"We apply constant pressure to our areas of ignorance, but have no idea where the breaks will come.Technology is always unpredictable & is resistant to planned break-throughs or arbitrary control"

J.A.W. said:

Interesting, many of these issues were considered by the makers of aircraft piston engines before turbines took over, seeking +ve power increases & balance of function/complexity/reliability. I recall one remark along the lines that although water is heavy to loft about the power gains from both latent heat of evaporation & the catalytic synergy of the breakdown into hydrogen & oxygen during combustion actually allowed an increase in range through higher maximum continous power out-put/speed.
Alternatively, how about plumbing that Commando backbone for a CO2 supply to spray on hot spots if critical temps are being risked?

Click to expand...

During WWII development of aircraft internal combustion engine technology was a priority and in many cases classified. Search the web for old National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA) declassified reports to get an idea of what I am talking about. See the following url for some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Advisory_Committee_for_Aeronautics.

The limiting factor to high performance in IC engines at the time was detonation. They were running incredible boost pressures and used water as a detonation suppressor. I don't think the break down of water into H2 and O is what happens.

Later years water (water glycol or water alcohol mixtures) was used in some of the early Boeing (707's?) and other turbine aircraft. More fuel could be poured on without melting the turbine blades by injecting water to reduce the temperature. Naturally the water would flsh to steam and provide the extra work.

As for hobots musings, I say just run the buggered and see what happens. When I ran the Druoin with 10 psi boost the engine would get toasty hot but it never seized or broke as a result of it and I did take some extended and spirited rides.

John-Dances report is very encouraging to a newibe with one shot left to max out and survive it.

Water injection involves more than the heat of phase change cooling. I've covered it in another un-responded to post and briefly reviewed above with JAW's insights.

Here's the key research on water vs heat power in one graph by Ricardo. The lower line has the ratios that matter.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2143132 ... 1179zDYPqt

I forgot to mention oil cooler, go liberal on the oil cooler and a NGK 10 heat range or colder. I think Champion offers some very cold plugs; maybe colder than NGK 10.

I don't think combustion temperatures (IC or turbine) get high enough to hydrolyze water; I may be wrong here and I thought I was wrong in the past but someone corrected me.

For IC engines it's knock suppression and for turbines it is converting the higher exhaust temperatures to usefull work rather than waste heat or melting the turbine blades.

Ask fire fighters who have played water on massive conflagrations what happens when a critical thermal point is reached & the water breaks down to an elemental level demolecular-wise & acts to accelerate the fire.
Check out the cold range plugs listed in this manual [on P.8, ever seen a B12 NGK?]
http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/h2r/h2rservice.pdf

Ricardo did some good work for Rolls-Royce on aero-engines, From Aeroplane Jan 2011; "Astoundingly, he managed to coax 219h.p./ltr & a BMEP of 325lb/in2." From a 5.1in X 6.5in sleeve valve 2T cylinder!
Of course, having an incandescent poppet valve crowding your combustion chamber dont help detonation control.

Youse guys thinking is way beyond me, but I did hear that the Germans used water injection in the Jumo engine for the Stuka as war emergency power. Can you believe that in 1939-40 they were making 12 cylinder inverted v 1200HP direct fuel injected magnesium engines? Of course the engines had a rebuild cycle of 40-80 hours. Could you get one of those on a Fetherbed frame?

Plus they would start the thing by hand cranking the disengaged flywheel with a couple of soldiers.

Dave

Time between overhaul -for Commandos - that might make a survey thread, & at what power rating?
note that 4T MXers use an on-board engine running meter to determine use-by schedules.

Dances with Shrapnel » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:41 pm
I forgot to mention oil cooler, go liberal on the oil cooler and a NGK 10 heat range or colder. I think Champion offers some very cold plugs; maybe colder than NGK 10.

I don't think combustion temperatures (IC or turbine) get high enough to hydrolyze water; I may be wrong here and I thought I was wrong in the past but someone corrected me.

For IC engines it's knock suppression and for turbines it is converting the higher exhaust temperatures to usefull work rather than waste heat or melting the turbine blades.

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Alrighty finally getting up to speed and on board to shove a Commando like its a Millennium Falcon. ALL of Peel frame but the middle down tubes is filled with circulating oil. The dry friction coat works well for a while, so may have to insulate spine to get oil to protective temps for normal type riding. Oil jet pump may have to get a special feed from a middle down tube if the 3/8" tube spine drain can't hot oil gravity feed both the engine pump and jet pump at maxing out rpms. Jet return could go back to spine via the LH mid tube, but this path short cuts time in spine to cool. Would not be hard to add normal type cooler if oil temp reads too high. I'll creep up on this of course. I have a large Corvette V8 oil cooler on shed wall just in case.

Water into turbines can erode blades, unless introduced at the center. There is some cooling benefit for turbines but that ain't the hot rod reason to water em, its the sudden increase in air density that ups their pumping compressing efficiency significantly. This is something ignored in most power pressure blower calcuators but when added into the engine calculators its scary predictions.

The pressure waves, heat, hi energy photon beams and turbulence do break water apart to H and O which are well know combustion reactants themselves but are so active ionized radicals in this state they usually latch on to something else to excite that to burn better faster w/o detonation. But just H & O & OH ain't the whole water equation chemistry, I have a long list of the known and predicted chains of water cluster and reactions that catalyze hydrocarbons into smoother burning species.

J.A.W. said:

Ask fire fighters who have played water on massive conflagrations what happens when a critical thermal point is reached & the water breaks down to an elemental level demolecular-wise & acts to accelerate the fire.

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Ask fire fighters what? You have made the point "if hot enough".

A metal fire like Magnesium or Titanium (or maybe even coal under certain conditions) is hot enough to break down water to its elements. Anyone familiar with fire fighting and various classes of fire extinguishers will know about this.

Combustion chamber temperatures are not hot enough. Water injection in IC engines provides detonation suppression which allows greater boosts and leaner air/fuel ratios. These were important factors in the war effort; power and fuel efficiency.

Postby J.A.W. » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:15 pm
Ask fire fighters who have played water on massive conflagrations what happens when a critical thermal point is reached & the water breaks down to an elemental level demolecular-wise & acts to accelerate the fire.
Check out the cold range plugs listed in this manual [on P.8, ever seen a B12 NGK?]
http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/h2r/h2rservice.pdf

Click to expand...

Didn't know open pressure fire could do that to water, cool I mean ugh. Very useful plug heat range for me, thankyou for shopping list.

hobot said:

Water into turbines can erode blades, unless introduced at the center.

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I am sure they have figured this out.

hobot said:

There is some cooling benefit for turbines but that ain't the hot rod reason to water em, its the sudden increase in air density that ups their pumping compressing efficiency significantly. This is something ignored in most power pressure blower calcuators but when added into the engine calculators its scary predictions.

Click to expand...

Hypothetically one could add considerably more fuel to a turbine to increase the thrust but increased temperature is a limiting factor. There are some incredibly clever (probably classified) ways to provide cooling besides water injection. It is and is not about cooling. The water flashes to steam providing more mass flow through the turbine. In theory, one could then add more fuel since the exhaust has been cooled a bit. Certainly not a jet engine expert but understand thermodynamics a bit.

Ricardo is definitely one of my ancient hero's like Tesla and Frankenstein Peel should be about bullet proof, once ITT tranny gotten. Sensors and switches to protect from over heat and rpm. If not enough to take on my target bait fish in straight lines then will just have to lie in wait till leaning conditions reels in again. Oh yeah except for the heat and torque loads, which we read some ways to handle, a mild boosted engine ie: has less stress at hi rpm throttle than w/o boost.