first evaliution on my TD Yam 260mm front drum

acotrel · Sep 23, 2016

madass140 said:
I'd imagine the experience and consequences would be similar when a disc brake locks?

'Imagine' is the right word. I used to do that and that is why I got chucked on my head a few times.
There is no way a drum brake will ever be as good as a disc brake. Even the chrome plated disc on the Mk3 Commando is more reliable than a drum. For racing, you need at least twin discs with twin spot callipers and the right pads. The single disc off the Mk3 Commando is not enough.
You cannot go fast on a bike if it has got an unreliable front brake. In the worst situation, it is sometimes necessary to get the bike vertical and jump on everything before you leave the bitumen. If you cannot rely on the front brake not having a mind of it's own - where are you ? Disc brakes don't rely on self servo and the best fitting shoes in a drum brake probably have less friction area effective, compared with a pair of disc brake pads.
When I was racing my short stroke Triton, I had 7R AJS drum brakes front and back. I virtually had nightmares before every race meeting. With the twin discs on the Seeley, I know what they will do - NO ANXIETY !
That bike of Yves is really beautiful and the brake looks lovely. If I turned up to a race meeting and saw that, I'd know straight away, he would not finish in front of me.

Bernhard · Sep 23, 2016

acotrel said:
madass140 said:

I'd imagine the experience and consequences would be similar when a disc brake locks?

Click to expand...

Disc brakes don't rely on self servo and the best fitting shoes in a drum brake probably have less friction area effective, compared with a pair of disc brake pads.
quote]

Once again you show that you are lagging behind the rest of the world in your Aussie backwater, the four pot calipers that are sometimes fitted give a “free “ servo effect, even a two pot one on sliders give half a servo effect :!: :!:

It seems that you have yet to try them :?:

yves norton seeley · Sep 23, 2016

acotrel said:
madass140 said:

I'd imagine the experience and consequences would be similar when a disc brake locks?

Click to expand...

'Imagine' is the right word. I used to do that and that is why I got chucked on my head a few times.
There is no way a drum brake will ever be as good as a disc brake. Even the chrome plated disc on the Mk3 Commando is more reliable than a drum. For racing, you need at least twin discs with twin spot callipers and the right pads. The single disc off the Mk3 Commando is not enough.
You cannot go fast on a bike if it has got an unreliable front brake. In the worst situation, it is sometimes necessary to get the bike vertical and jump on everything before you leave the bitumen. If you cannot rely on the front brake not having a mind of it's own - where are you ? Disc brakes don't rely on self servo and the best fitting shoes in a drum brake probably have less friction area effective, compared with a pair of disc brake pads.
When I was racing my short stroke Triton, I had 7R AJS drum brakes front and back. I virtually had nightmares before every race meeting. With the twin discs on the Seeley, I know what they will do - NO ANXIETY !
That bike of Yves is really beautiful and the brake looks lovely. If I turned up to a race meeting and saw that, I'd know straight away, he would not finish in front of me.

Hi there,
It's indian summer here in Belgium, and I ride my seeley everyday, I did different braking test and never block the weel!
Another advantage with the 4 LS over I singel disc brake is that you don't twist the fork anyùmore
I block a weel once in my life and it was on my Yamaha R7 superbike, with swedish billet 4 pots calibers, one day I have to do an emergency braking at low speed, block the weel and did a "salto mortale"
I don't need to proof anything on the track anymore, I proof it with 110 victories in Side Car racing
Again I got the drum for the look and so far I feel safe, even if I ride fast on the road

acotrel · Sep 23, 2016

Don't sidecars have that third wheel to stop them from falling over ? There is only one class in Australia in which drum brakes are a specified requirement - Period 3, Historic. And ALL the bikes have drum brakes. Drum brakes are still too dangerous for modern road racing, even when there are no disc-braked bikes in the race. It doesn't matter how you set a drum-brake up, it will always be unpredictable. They change as they are used and if they work well, you are lucky.
My old Triton 500 is in the next town and being rebuilt. It now has two commando brakes in it - both drums. If I am offered a ride, I will do a few laps on it - CAREFULLY. It won't have enough brakes to get me out of trouble if it is ridden at race speed. It is a fact of life.
Yves your bike looks great with that big drum brake, however please do not use it in anger, it will probably bite you.
In the olden days, the combination of drum brakes, pudding-basin helmets, hard tyres and inadequate steering dampers, - all worked together to kill a lot of excellent riders.

xbacksideslider · Sep 23, 2016

Thanks Yves; great brake.

I once had a Commando with a 300mm (+ or -) Fontana on it; very powerful and it did put me on my head one morning, when, on the brakes hard, I changed lanes and doing so crossed some damp paint.

NKN · Sep 23, 2016

Is this post getting transformed by a few from a presentation to pros and cons a drum brake?

Fast Eddie · Sep 23, 2016

NKN said:
Is this post getting transformed by a few from a presentation to pros and cons a drum brake?

Quite right NKN !

Yves is a big boy, in fact he is nearly grown up now. He is perfectly able to make his own decisions. He has run a disc, and now chooses to run a drum BECAUSE HE WANTS TO.

I don't know why it cannot simply be left at that, and his bike admired for what it is !

madass140 · Sep 24, 2016

I've sold well over 50 of these TZ brakes set up specifically to fit Noton 7-3/8" centre forks, Never had one customer come back with braking issues or any other issues for that matter. So yes each to their own, Yves likes his and thats all that matters.
Don

yves norton seeley · Sep 24, 2016

acotrel said:
madass140 said:

I'd imagine the experience and consequences would be similar when a disc brake locks?

Click to expand...

'Imagine' is the right word. I used to do that and that is why I got chucked on my head a few times.
There is no way a drum brake will ever be as good as a disc brake. Even the chrome plated disc on the Mk3 Commando is more reliable than a drum. For racing, you need at least twin discs with twin spot callipers and the right pads. The single disc off the Mk3 Commando is not enough.
You cannot go fast on a bike if it has got an unreliable front brake. In the worst situation, it is sometimes necessary to get the bike vertical and jump on everything before you leave the bitumen. If you cannot rely on the front brake not having a mind of it's own - where are you ? Disc brakes don't rely on self servo and the best fitting shoes in a drum brake probably have less friction area effective, compared with a pair of disc brake pads.
When I was racing my short stroke Triton, I had 7R AJS drum brakes front and back. I virtually had nightmares before every race meeting. With the twin discs on the Seeley, I know what they will do - NO ANXIETY !
That bike of Yves is really beautiful and the brake looks lovely. If I turned up to a race meeting and saw that, I'd know straight away, he would not finish in front of me.

Hi Acotrel,
I will for sure not finish in front of you, but I remember a pilot that was able to do it, he was riding a TZ Yam with the 260mm, I saw him braking at the airpin of "La Source" at Spa- Francochamps
He was braking so hard that the front fender was toutching is fairing, his name was not Yves but Jarno, Jarno Sarinen
About the original disc brake from the Commando: wath I remember is that you must send a fax to the brake the day before if you wish to be sure the brake will react.
Of couse I admit that twin discs will be better than a drum, but will never look so period as the 260 drum

yves norton seeley · Sep 24, 2016

acotrel said:
Don't sidecars have that third wheel to stop them from falling over ? There is only one class in Australia in which drum brakes are a specified requirement - Period 3, Historic. And ALL the bikes have drum brakes. Drum brakes are still too dangerous for modern road racing, even when there are no disc-braked bikes in the race. It doesn't matter how you set a drum-brake up, it will always be unpredictable. They change as they are used and if they work well, you are lucky.
My old Triton 500 is in the next town and being rebuilt. It now has two commando brakes in it - both drums. If I am offered a ride, I will do a few laps on it - CAREFULLY. It won't have enough brakes to get me out of trouble if it is ridden at race speed. It is a fact of life.
Yves your bike looks great with that big drum brake, however please do not use it in anger, it will probably bite you.
In the olden days, the combination of drum brakes, pudding-basin helmets, hard tyres and inadequate steering dampers, - all worked together to kill a lot of excellent riders.

Hi there,
no side cars don't have a third weel to stop them from falling over, but you need a lot of talent to be driving very fast, if you lock your front weel on a racing side car you will lost the steering and will end your race near the track.
Side car racing is the most exiting way of racing becouse you are with two persons to drive the outfit, and why you must be talented, becouse the whole outfit is ilogical bult, the outfit turn in two different way, left and right and so on.
To me the most important reason that exellent riders ware killed in the pass was the tracks, the most of the time you have a five century old oak tree to stop you when you are going out the track
Btw; I am still riding with pudding-basin helmet, I still own and use the Cromwell that I buy when I was 16, maybe I have pudding in place of a brain.
Yves

acotrel · Sep 24, 2016

Yves, A few years ago there was an old guy in Melbourne who thought he looked cute wearing a pudding-basin helmet while riding his old classic bike. He fell off at about 40 MPH and died by the side of the road. While I was racing regularly over about a 12 period, I only ever had one crash after which I really believed I might have been killed. It happened when I over-reacted to another rider's stupidity and locked the front brake. The bike went into a lock to lock tank-slapper and I did not get my hand off the bars quick enough, so I got launched - no big deal. I went down the road at about 70MPH on the top of my head with my feet in the air. By the time I reached the ripple in the bitumen, I was on my side - so only suffered a dislocated collar-bone. If I'd still been on the top of my head, I'd probably be dead right now.
With drum brakes, there are too many variables. What you might think is OK can kill you. They should be banned in all motorcycle racing - who needs that shit ?
I use two Suzuki discs with Lockheed AP callipers with asbestos pads on my Seeley and I can use the front brake with full confidence, knowing that if I lock it, it won't stay on and launch me. The only time I had trouble was when I noticed the rubber bellows in the master cylinder was split, so I threw it away. The piston took a gulp of air - NO BRAKES.
You cannot effectively race a bike with an indeterminate front brake. It needs to be 100% reliable.
Your bike looks lovely with that brake, however personally I would never try and race with it.

Fast Eddie · Sep 24, 2016

acotrel said:
Yves, A few years ago there was an old guy in Melbourne who thought he looked cute wearing a pudding-basin helmet while riding his old classic bike. He fell off at about 40 MPH and died by the side of the road. While I was racing regularly over about a 12 period, I only ever had one crash after which I really believed I might have been killed. It happened when I over-reacted to another rider's stupidity and locked the front brake. The bike went into a lock to lock tank-slapper and I did not get my hand off the bars quick enough, so I got launched - no big deal. I went down the road at about 70MPH on the top of my head with my feet in the air. By the time I reached the ripple in the bitumen, I was on my side - so only suffered a dislocated collar-bone. If I'd still been on the top of my head, I'd probably be dead right now.
With drum brakes, there are too many variables. What you might think is OK can kill you. They should be banned in all motorcycle racing - who needs that shit ?
I use two Suzuki discs with Lockheed AP callipers with asbestos pads on my Seeley and I can use the front brake with full confidence, knowing that if I lock it, it won't stay on and launch me. The only time I had trouble was when I noticed the rubber bellows in the master cylinder was split, so I threw it away. The piston took a gulp of air - NO BRAKES.
You cannot effectively race a bike with an indeterminate front brake. It needs to be 100% reliable.
Your bike looks lovely with that brake, however personally I would never try and race with it.

So, you wouldn't race Yves bike acotrel? To the best of my knowledge from reading this thread, he never asked you to...!

But never mind that, we have a resolution... Yves likes his bike and his brake... you like your bike and your brake.

All is well with the world.

lets move on...

madass140 · Sep 24, 2016

acotrel · Sep 25, 2016

I have only posted my comments out of concern for Yves' safety. Even if every part of that brake was set up to the correct tolerances, the self-servo effect can still be dangerous. I once watched a race where a friend of mine had a twin disc set-up off a Yamaha road bike fitted to his TR3 production racer and about four other guys with those big drum brakes, crashed while trying to stay with him as he braked into corners. It was a very dramatic demonstration. If all the bikes in a race have drum brakes and none have disc brakes, the situation is marginally better. However a mix of bikes with both types of brake is bad news.

Fast Eddie · Sep 25, 2016

acotrel said:
I have only posted my comments out of concern for Yves' safety. Even if every part of that brake was set up to the correct tolerances, the self-servo effect can still be dangerous. I once watched a race where a friend of mine had a twin disc set-up off a Yamaha road bike fitted to his TR3 production racer and about four other guys with those big drum brakes, crashed while trying to stay with him as he braked into corners. It was a very dramatic demonstration. If all the bikes in a race have drum brakes and none have disc brakes, the situation is marginally better. However a mix of bikes with both types of brake is bad news.

Ok, fair enough, let's not move on then, let's keep on repeating them same boring, self opinionated, tripe.

That'll sort it.

acotrel · Sep 25, 2016

Eddie - how much do you have to pay for insurance cover each time you practice or race ? These days at least in Australia it is prohibitive.

xbacksideslider · Sep 26, 2016

Just relating an old story, that morning dew on that stripe of paint would a got me with a disc too.

Yves - If I had a choice between a 4 shoe and a disc, I'd take the 4 shoe. Way cooler and I'd love to give some disc brake youngsters a lesson or two with it.

first evaliution on my TD Yam 260mm front drum

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