Exhaust header into collector science video

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Wanting to reroute headers more compactly and join them more effectively found these inspiring demos.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NekTRPx68zs[/video]

The music keep me attentive till the shapes did too
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9pHTtyzz_I[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKfkUO2Uu7E[/video]


I've been vexed with what to fit in the end of the long dong Dunstall for actual muffling w/o much restriction.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDTTOa77efs[/video]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NCe57kvRyY[/video]
 
Collector length power

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ywUEz5XtdE[/video]
 
Mildly interesting ! I started using a two into one ppe on my short stroke triumph years a go in an attempt to get more torque and s top it from being insane. I found that the outlet of the collector had t o be the same crossectional area as the sum of the two header pipes or I lost a lot of top end. The motor was fitted w ith big base circle cams with about 370 deg. duration. I found that if I opened the exhaust before 85 deg. BBDC, the noise got louder and the bike went slower. I also opened the inlet about 80 deg. BTDC, and power cut in with a big bang at 6000 rpm. Fitting the pipe allowed me to get decent lap times because it fattened up the mid-range and only limitted the revs to 9,500 instead of 10,500.
When I built the seeley 850, I used two header pipes intended for a kawasaki 900, and a good long tail pipe. Because I was rebuilding the motor I decided to compensate for the exhaust pipe by advancing the cam 15 degrees, which would cause the exhaust to open at 72 de g. BBDC. I had the cam reground and thought I was getting the standard combat profile. It t urned out to be the standard 850 grind, so the exhaust closing point came t o 27 de g. ATDC, which I felt was a bit t oo early. I'd expected it to be around 40 deg. ATDC. However the torque characteristics of the motor are excellent, and I need to run overall gearing so high that using a CR gearbox with a high first is very difficult at the start of races. So I bought the 6 speed TTI box (yet to be tried in anger).
I recently bought a standard combat cam from Brett Wolfie on this f orum. I'll wait unt il I can afford JS pistons and rods, and I will rebuild the motor again.

I had a look at the Z900 Kawasaki cam timings on Ivan Tighe's web site. The race bikes use four into one pipes with the same length header pipes that my commando pipe uses. The track cams on Ivan's site give timings similar to what the standard combat cam will give if advanced 15 degrees. Considering that the Z900 is a short stroke top end motor, using the combat cam the way I intend to use it in my 89mm stroke 850 commando engine, is quite radical.
I feel that every thing I've done to make my bike go faster has been the reverse of what Norton did to make their standard bikes tractable and user friendly in traffic. I've tapered the inlet port, filled the hole in the flywheel to change the balance factor, rigidly mounted the motor, and advanced the camshaft to where a racing motor would normally have it, and fitted a racing exhaust .
 
Oh my you old fart Alan, what a detailed study for me to take in and savor digesting a long time. Of all that banter with me on power character and handling delights across wide range you touch my own concerns and revelations the most. I once tried to play with cam degree's with Peel's vernier sprocket but I got piston/valve clash on each of a few attempts so realized over my head at the time and left 2S cam the way it came. On Peel in her hey day I mainly only used 2nd to get into 4th fast as I could because that's what pulled the hardest longest satisfyingly effective not to delay WOT 600'cc moderns in the opens. Your Triumph cam example lands in same zone as Norris D so directly applies to what I got to think about and try.

The most dramatic thing way making a 2-1 with long Dustall, way removing the heavy and restrictive Supertrap I'd put on and in power straved boggy frustration relief, shot 12 ga slug though the center for ~1 3/4" flaired out hole, then could not snap throttle in 1 or 2 w/o planting butt and gripping tight or got left behind. Boosted applications benefit most by exhaust side flow work so looking deep as I can. That straight through diesel muffler set up was very close to my own design idea that the end can shape of the Dunstall would be easy to mimick. Peel's hi throttle sent blue organe jet about a foot past the end but disappearing. Don't want to block that roar but at low throttle I do expect it to be rather on the low soft side.

I need more explaining please on the cross sectional area matching. Are you saying the collector inside dia should be a bit bigger than the two headers ID or its volume must be sized to equal headers?
 
When I fitte d the two into one exhaust to the triumph I used a collector which brought the crossectional area of the collector down to about 2/3 of the total of the two header pipes and the bike almost s topped. I started cutting back the collector and fitted parallel pipes between it and a long tapered megaphone. I ended up with a piece in the centre exactly the same area as the total of the headers . I couldn't see sense in increasing it beyond that point. You have to vibrate the gas in the tail pipe as well as the header pipes, the more there is to vibrate ..... ? I think it is also a matter of gas velocities (also a step in the pipe) , just like the size inlet ports affect torque.
I wonder how many guys have tried advancing the cam timing when using a two into one exhaust ? One thing about my bike - at least it sounds like it is going to do something, and it really hoots along. My feeling is that it is not far off a standard nmotor, and it really excites me.
As I've said before, I built it in the late 70s but never tried to race it then. I expected it t o blow up straight away. I am so sorry that I've left so late - it is a really good jigger. When I was racing regularly, I used t o run in Allpowers C Grade, and the main opposition had either two stroke 500s and 750s or Z900s - most on methanol. I just did not believe my norton could effectively do the necessary, so I did not do the exercise . Sadly I am now aware that it would have been competitive .
 
Alrighty Alan I'm still confused on your collector tuning process but we both have similar surprises of what our old clunker air cooled Nortons were capable of power pulling wise. I may have to buy a small wire welder to diddle Peels exhaust at home instead of muffler shops. I figure loosing like 6-7 lb by removing about half of the dual set up is worth a bit too.
 
I think the current timings I stated for my 850 commando were incorrect. I do remember however that I advanced the cam 15 degrees when I fitted the two into one exhaust,
 
acotrel said:
I think the current timings I stated for my 850 commando were incorrect. I do remember however that I advanced the cam 15 degrees when I fitted the two into one exhaust,


In advancing the cam by however many degrees, you are opening the exhaust early, and closing it early. By so doing you are obtaining plenty of clearance for the valve to piston just prior to TDC. The reverse is the case for the inlet valve, by opening so early the valve to piston clearance is dramatically reduced just after TDC. The unfortunate point of all this is - you are stuck with it because the cams are all on one shaft. A Triumph twin has an advantage here (possibly the only one) in that the camshafts are adjustable independent of each other. Most cams for the commando seem to be made with fixed lobe centres, the profiles themselves may be excellent, but the lobe centres could well be somewhat different than the standard offering. Unless anyone has private facilities for manufacturing their own designs, you are pretty well stuck with whats on offer from the various suppliers. The one thing the commando camshaft does do is make it virtually impossible to get in a mess with inter valve clashes. You may well end up with valves touching pistons, but it's going to be mighty difficult to tangle the valves alone, allowing for mechanical integrity of all other associated parts.
 
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