Ethanol and carb corrosion.

After reading some recent articles on the subject, experienced it first hand this week.

I have been trying to get the Buell Blast to run again so I can sell it.

It was running great last fall when I put it away for the winter.

Took it out this spring, it would only start off the ether.

New plug, numerous carb cleanings, faulty ignition module, it finally was running, but hard to start.

On the last carb strip down, while using air and carb cleaner noticed bubbles from the threads of the main jet tube.

Tried to remove it, then it broke. Upon investigation found severe corosion and weakened metal. Ethanol!!! Total crap.

Now to find a new tube, Keihin CV 40, luckily common. Unfortunately no one has good weekend hours around here.

the ethanol fuel here in the Philippines is extra crap, I've tried different brands and grades and its all crap. its worse on smaller bikes that have very small slow speed jets, they clog up if not used for a few weeks, Now I always thought that is was the actual fuel doing the clogging, but I read a couple of articles which stated that the ethanol acts as a cleaner and loosens
up any gunk in your tank etc, and its this dislodged gunk that is doing the clogging, I'm still not sure about that, I'm more inclined to think its the ethanol clogging things up, I've not experienced corrosion but that doesnt mean to say its not happening.

I think it's a combination of several factors.

1: Ethanol is a natural produce- IE it spoils. They say it has a 30 day shelf life

2: Ethanol is a solvent - loosens up tank crap

3: Ethanol attracts water - traps the water in it and sits and corrodes

It's all a bad idea. We loose out on the food value lost when corn is converted, we lose out on the damage it causes etc....

They are trying to push 15% thru around here, but many are fighting it.

It also attacks aluminum, plastics, rubbers and apparently brass.

I have ethanol resistant fuel lines, they turn hard in a few weeks.

bwolfie said:

1: Ethanol is a natural produce- IE it spoils. They say it has a 30 day shelf life

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Ethanol is the active ingredient of ALL alcoholic drinks.
Not sure that the makers of +200+ year old scotch or brandy etc would entirely agree with this....

If the ethanol added to fuel was 100 % pure ethanol (for the 10% of fuel they comprise), we wonder if all these same problems would occur ??

As far as anything except toxicity and latent heat of vaporisation goes, ethanol is similar to methanol. I use methanol fuel, when I stop my bike I remove the tank and pour the contents into a screw capped drum with a plastic seal. I also remove the bottom caps (jet covers) from the carbs, and place them on the shelf until the next time. If you leave alcohol fuel in the aluminium/zinc diecast carb bodies, it will attract water, then the white crap will form and probably block jets and passages in the carbs.
Years ago I had a T250 Suzuki on methanol. The white crap formed and I had a seizure at top speed at the end of a straight. Even though I ripped the clutch in, the bike still slid for about 20 metres with the rear wheel locked. I then decided to drill the drain screws and found that had been done in the factory. All you need to do with Mikunis is slacken the drain screws, and remember to tighten them again next time.

I use the MARINE Stabil (NOT THE LAWNMOWER STUFF!) in all my bikes and it works great, when I get in from a ride I look in the tank, estimate the amount of gas, add the Stabil and shake the bike around to mix it. Then I close the petcocks and let it run out. I leave bikes sitting for WAY too long and I have not had a problem yet.

Vince

Al, I have had methanol experience also, contamination between ethanol and methanol give 2 very different results.
anyone using methanol would be aware of its problems in alloy carbs.
Our concern is with ethanol , we have no choice but to use it, I reckon people like Stabil etc will make a killing.
I wish I could buy it here, my friend has it shipped here personally at great expense and time coz these days you cant send liquids by air so its a slow boat.

Does racing fuel go bad as quickly as pump gas ethanol shit? I was thinking about buying some racing leaded fuel and putting it in a large gas can in my garage. But I don't want to do this if it's going to go off after 30 days.

Alcohols don't spoil but can spoil various metals and organic polymers especially after its absorbed some water to split up in into pure acid and alkaline reactive free radicals, Ie: H+ & OH- ions. Its a flat pain in the low back and neck to drain modern d/t fuel valve activated only by 12 v or engine vacuum and most new mowers ain't arranged to drain either. Now central banks money should be spent-used before it spoils, so spiked gasoline is just another part of getting the people to pay for their planet's demise while likes of Monsanto and senators from corn states making a killing laughing all the to you know where. i lucked out on my SuVee dog downed in Nov. '13 till May '14 sputtered and coughed and smoothed with some soot then cleared up to make it to fresh spiked gasoline. Hm reminds me time to get more no lead no booze 91 octane in my over head tank w/o DOT taxes. Thank goodness non of these can ignite by a mere cigarette.

Sea Foam not a bad id for the lazy man with many sticks in the fire so slack on gas draining discipline. If ya add lots of water to gas and shake it will separate out to decant the gas off but lowers octane a handful of points too.

acotrel said:

As far as anything except toxicity and latent heat of vaporisation goes, ethanol is similar to methanol..

Click to expand...

As a side note, in case anyone is misled, methanol has only about half the calorific value of ethanol.
Ethanol is not far below the fuel values of gasoline/petrol.

Having used methanol fuels in miniature aero engines, you have to drain out ALL the fuel from tanks and carbs etc.
Methanol is noted for exuding water, and, as noted above, will rot alloy almost while you watch...

While I was sourcing the main jet holder, the local bike shop suggested this stuff

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300968977350?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

http://www.starbrite.com/en/startron

Anyone tried it?

I also researched ethanol fuel additives and nearly all said they did the same thing , clean your fuel system which I thought was not a good idea as it would make more shit pass thru your carb jets, the only one I found was by a company in the UK Miller or Millers that was actually a lead replacement for ethanol fuels, unfortunately I could not try it due to liquids not being able to be shipped by air.

Rohan said:

acotrel said:

As far as anything except toxicity and latent heat of vaporisation goes, ethanol is similar to methanol..

Click to expand...

As a side note, in case anyone is misled, methanol has only about half the calorific value of ethanol.
Ethanol is not far below the fuel values of gasoline/petrol.

Having used methanol fuels in miniature aero engines, you have to drain out ALL the fuel from tanks and carbs etc.
Methanol is noted for exuding water, and, as noted above, will rot alloy almost while you watch...

Click to expand...

In case anyone is mislead :
https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprin ... 6_0880.pdf

Both methanol and ethanol are totally miscible with water, and when in fuels absorb water from the atmosphere. What happens when an alloy corrodes in fuel is due to a bimetallic effect. The water is a conductor and the different element crystals in the metal form electro-chemical cells. Metal is carried off the anodes and deposited on the cathodes in those cells, the oxygen released forms zinc oxide in diecast carb bodies. If the bodies were pure aluminium you wouldn't have the problem.
Rohan, I've used both pure ethanol and pure methanol in a race motor. Methanol is much better as far as power is concerned, however you use much more of it. The important factor is the latent heat of vaporisation NOT the calorific value. The best fuel ever without using nitro-compounds was the blends used in Maseratis in the 50s. BP JA and JB and Shell M (?). They were about 70% methanol, the rest was benzene and a bit of acetone to blend them. You don't need 100% methanol to get max chilling effect and the entrained benzene provides the calories. We don't do that since we found out that benzene causes leukaemia.

Indeed.
But you can take methanol out of a sealed drum, and it wil exude a drop of water or 6 even while you watch,
it doesn't need to absorb it from the atmosphere.
Ethanol is also generally distilled from a brew also containing water, and you don't need to be much of a hooch maker/chemist
to know it is almost impossible to separate out all the water from the alcohol.

BTW, it is legally defined that petrol (gas) sold from the pump can contain up to 2 % water.
When you see that underground tanks usually contain a fair slug of water in them, you know why.
But the water rarely will separate out, unless the % is higher...

acotrel said:

Methanol is much better as far as power is concerned, however you use much more of it. The important factor is the latent heat of vaporisation NOT the calorific value.

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If you use +twice as much methanol and the latent heat etc is similar, then methanol will keep things twice as cool.
Methanol will also tolerate much higher compression ratios without detonation, which is where the real power comes from....

Twice as much methanol passing through a jet in a carb doesn't make the charge twice as cool, it gives you twice the calories. 60% methanol in a blend makes the charge of blend sufficiently cool to get close to the maximum supercharging effect. If the rest is hydrocarbon you have a source of calories much greater than the remaining 40% methanol which you replaced. The comp ratio thing is deceptive. With methanol you get unlimited antiknock thus if your motor is high comp methanol suits it better. If you run it in a lower comp motor, you can use more ignition advance and leaner mixtures. The result is similar. What you get by increasing the comp ratio and retarding the ignition with richer mixtures is only slightly better. With a low comp 4 stroke motor, I always use 4 degrees advance over standard and jet to it, On 12 to one it is normal to run the standard advance as for petrol. If the motor is on 14 to one, it is normal to retard the ignition up to 4 degrees and jet to that. It is not really essential to go the ultra high comp path. Especially with a British twin, the design imposes limitations as to what the bottom end will cop, and getting the motor to fire reliably takes a really good ignition system. If I was racing a Molnar Manx I'd get it up ultra-high in compression ratio, it is almost the only four stroke motor which will cop it reliably.
Years ago I looked at a Trident which was on 14 to one with methanol. It had pulled the back out of the crankcases, and the ignition system was always a problem. It might give you a thrill to do that stuff however it takes a big bank balance and a really good sense of humour.
If I was really trying to be competitive, I buy one of those really old fat lady petrol bowsers to use in fuel blending. Controlling the blend is a problem. I'd use a mix of 60% methanol, 35% toluene and 5% acetone. As it is straight methanol on 9 to one comp. with a good close box, is more than adequate.
I suggest you should get an old four stroke single (Ariel or similar) and experiment a bit using the methanol and blends with different timings and jetting.

What is really funny is that my brother has built a 600cc Jawa two valve speedway motor into a sidecar. The longer stroke has increased the comp. ratio to 17 to one. It is a real blur and has seen off 1000cc Vincents on the speedway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoWlC8wzA7g

We diverge, muchly.
But this is hardly surprising ?

Rohan said:

Methanol will also tolerate much higher compression ratios without detonation, which is where the real power comes from....

Click to expand...

acotrel said:

Twice as much methanol passing through a jet in a carb doesn't make the charge twice as cool,.

Click to expand...

Yes and no.
This is the principle that refrigeration works on.
Force thousands of times more substance passing from the liquid to the gas phase,
and you can cool whole warehouses...

But we diverge, muchly..