Commando Fork Conversion to Honda Cartridges - Update from Cosentino

lcrken

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Chris Cosentino just posted this on the MC-chassis design forum, with some interesting details on his conversions. It was in response to someone asking if anyone had tried putting modern cartridge dampers inside Norton forks.

"I sell this as a drop in product for vintage Norton Roadholder, some Ceriani, and Triumph T140/150 forks. There are some pics at: https://www.cosentinoengineering.com/products/

It is an improved version of a sketch done by Kenny Dreer that I was shown and that many other people have done on their own. My kit retains the compression damping adjuster by making the lower damper retaining bolt hollow and putting the needle and fluid return path inside it, which I think is the only retrofit kit that does it. I use 2006 CBR600RR dampers as the donor part, Honda part number 51430-MEE-D01. Once you get later than this year the forks from various manufacturers have 'big piston' dampers which don’t fit inside the smaller 34.5mm and 35mm forks. The damper body fits just inside the Norton tubes. I have to machine off the hydraulic bump stop to fit it in, but the damping improvement is well worth it. Most people with these bikes complain about top-out clunk which this eliminates since the damper has a built in top-out spring.

Everything in my kit is easily replicated for a one-off with a manual lathe and the parts to measure.

I had to have new springs wound as part of the kit since the Showa cartridge body is much longer than the OEM damper body, leaving a lot less space to fit a proper spring. Normal street bikes with 180lb riders usually use 40 or 45lb/in springs. Lightweight single cylinder racers like Manxs use 25 or 30lb/in. My springs are 25mm OD x 355-380mm long. Love those mixed units! 😉



Chris Cosentino
COSENTINO ENGINEERING
812 Jersey Ave. 3rd Floor
Jersey City, NJ 07310
201-392-1400
www.cosentinoengineering.com"

Ken
 
Chris Cosentino just posted this on the MC-chassis design forum, with some interesting details on his conversions. It was in response to someone asking if anyone had tried putting modern cartridge dampers inside Norton forks.

"I sell this as a drop in product for vintage Norton Roadholder, some Ceriani, and Triumph T140/150 forks. There are some pics at: https://www.cosentinoengineering.com/products/

It is an improved version of a sketch done by Kenny Dreer that I was shown and that many other people have done on their own. My kit retains the compression damping adjuster by making the lower damper retaining bolt hollow and putting the needle and fluid return path inside it, which I think is the only retrofit kit that does it. I use 2006 CBR600RR dampers as the donor part, Honda part number 51430-MEE-D01. Once you get later than this year the forks from various manufacturers have 'big piston' dampers which don’t fit inside the smaller 34.5mm and 35mm forks. The damper body fits just inside the Norton tubes. I have to machine off the hydraulic bump stop to fit it in, but the damping improvement is well worth it. Most people with these bikes complain about top-out clunk which this eliminates since the damper has a built in top-out spring.

Everything in my kit is easily replicated for a one-off with a manual lathe and the parts to measure.

I had to have new springs wound as part of the kit since the Showa cartridge body is much longer than the OEM damper body, leaving a lot less space to fit a proper spring. Normal street bikes with 180lb riders usually use 40 or 45lb/in springs. Lightweight single cylinder racers like Manxs use 25 or 30lb/in. My springs are 25mm OD x 355-380mm long. Love those mixed units! 😉



Chris Cosentino
COSENTINO ENGINEERING
812 Jersey Ave. 3rd Floor
Jersey City, NJ 07310
201-392-1400
www.cosentinoengineering.com"

Ken
Ken,
I have his kit on my bike now for 2 years now and am very pleased with both the way they fit and how they work.After 2-3 different settings along with fork oil weight for my small size, I think it is a nice upgrade.Plus excellent customer service for all my questions,etc.
Mike
 
I've been discussing the CBR600rr damper conversion with Ken and John here after I was underwhelmed with the landsdownes performance riding on my local streets This prompted me to do a good bit of research on the evolution of damper technology to answer some questions. Essentially, street riding is not race track riding. Because street riding has a wide variety of surface conditions, dampers benefit greatly from shim stack technology to allow for both smooth surface high performance and "not so smooth surface" high performance in a single damper. A damping system without dual circuit performance can only adjust to one surface condition at the expense of the other. Adjustable fixed orifice dampers may work well for a race track where the surface is consistent but they work less well for a street bike. Modern bikes have this shim stack valve technology where you can tune both smooth surface performance and rough surface performance without sacrificing one for the other.

The modifications require some custom made parts, and some modified stock parts, a knowledge of shim stack technology (which is seemingly a form of voodoo) plus all the standard depth of knowledge that primitive fork dampers required OR you could just buy the Cosentino damper set up where they do all the work for you.

As with my cast aluminum wheels conversion, I started out on this project to cut the cost of getting modern shim stack dampers into my forks and by the time I'm finished I will have probably saves some money, but not all that much. I'm not done with my conversion, so I can't say yet how it performs. From my research I know that the low velocity circuit will be easier to tune than the high velocity circuit which will require cartridge disassembly, valve disassembly and experimenting with different shim stack configurations. Shim stack expertise is not easily acquired or found anywhere, so you either have to rely on some guru to help you or you are experimenting. (like me)

There's also aftermarket high performance valving that can be added at a price (racetech gold valves) That's about it for now since I am not finished with my project. Much thanks to Ken and John (kommando) for their help and advice, and Chris Cosentino for his information (and for actually making a commercial version for those who just want to buy the next level of technology) I'll give a report on the initial performance once I get my first configuration installed. I'll add the relevant specifications so that information is available to everyone here.

Here's a helpful website page for those who want to go way down the rabbit hole of suspension: https://www.peterverdone.com/archive/suspension.htm
 
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I've been discussing the CBR600rr damper conversion with Ken and John here after I was underwhelmed with the landsdownes performance riding on my local streets This prompted me to do a good bit of research on the evolution of damper technology to answer some questions. Essentially, street riding is not race track riding. Because street riding has a wide variety of surface conditions, dampers benefit greatly from shim stack technology to allow for both smooth surface high performance and "not so smooth surface" high performance in a single damper. A damping system without dual circuit performance can only adjust to one surface condition at the expense of the other. Adjustable fixed orifice dampers may work well for a race track where the surface is consistent but they work less well for a street bike. Modern bikes have this shim stack valve technology where you can tune both smooth surface performance and rough surface performance without sacrificing one for the other.

The modifications require some custom made parts, and some modified stock parts, a knowledge of shim stack technology (which is seemingly a form of voodoo) plus all the standard depth of knowledge that primitive fork dampers required OR you could just buy the Cosentino damper set up where they do all the work for you.

As with my cast aluminum wheels conversion, I started out on this project to cut the cost of getting modern shim stack dampers into my forks and by the time I'm finished I will have probably saves some money, but not all that much. I'm not done with my conversion, so I can't say yet how it performs. From my research I know that the low velocity circuit will be easier to tune than the high velocity circuit which will require cartridge disassembly, valve disassembly and experimenting with different shim stack configurations. Shim stack expertise is not easily acquired or found anywhere, so you either have to rely on some guru to help you or you are experimenting. (like me)

There's also aftermarket high performance valving that can be added at a price (racetech gold valves) That's about it for now since I am not finished with my project. Much thanks to Ken and John (kommando) for their help and advice, and Chris Cosentino for his information (and for actually making a commercial version for those who just want to buy the next level of technology) I'll give a report on the initial performance once I get my first configuration installed. I'll add the relevant specifications so that information is available to everyone here.

Here's a helpful website page for those who want to go way down the rabbit hole of suspension: https://www.peterverdone.com/archive/suspension.htm
Any further reports please?
 
Well,.. I did months of research so the things I tried and the information I learned is not simple to express. Mostly because the more variables you have, the more the combinations multiply. I'll try to summarize what I have come to believe. Bear in mind that I am not an expert, just a very curious person who has an obsession with mechanical stuff...

A stock damper has only two adjustments without resorting to drilling extra holes in the forks or modifying stock parts. One adjustment is fork oil viscosity and the other is spring rate. With the dampers I modified there's a few more adjustments and the valves are dual circuit valves so they work differently on smooth and rough roads. These modern dampers have separate adjustments for compression damping and rebound. It also has preload adjustments to set the rider sag. Those extra variables add to the complexity of setting up the suspension.

Still with all this newer design and adjustable mechanisms you can't have both ends of the stick at the same time in this case because the spring rate isn't adjustable in the same way that the valves are. So you can dial greater or lesser damping or a combination of compression and rebound that feels best for you, but the spring rate you chose sort of tells you which end of the stick you are aiming at... By that I mean, if you want a high performance suspension that maintains maximum traction between the tire and the road, you can't have a soft spring which gives a softer ride. The length of time that your tire's traction is reduced by an impact with a bump will be longer with a soft spring than a stiffer spring. This kind of means that if you want the softest ride possible you give up the quicker responding spring and settings and lose some traction, or at the very least you compromise one for the other... There's no combination of modern adjustable dampers where you get a soft ride and high traction performance. Maybe the magnetic computer controlled suspension of the William's F1 suspension can do that, but that suspension doesn't have a spring. Spring choice characterizes your suspension to one end, the other, or it compromises one for the other and you get neither the softest ride nor the best performance.

The greatest advantage of modern suspension comes into play where you only care about higher performance, like in a sport bike being ridden aggressively. If all you wanted was a soft ride you don't need anything more than the stock commando suspension and maybe Jim Schmidt's damper parts upgrade kit to make the stock parts a little less sloppy (sloppy parts makes their response less consistent)

If you want to ride more aggressively, you don't want soft suspension because the amount of time that your traction is reduced from any surface irregularities is increased which makes your bike feel like it's floating along with less grip. I originally thought that the dual circuit valves in the damper might give the best of both worlds, but the spring rate is integral in the response time of the suspension so it characterizes the response where it can't be "soft" some of the time and be "stiff" when it needs to deliver higher performance.

So, you have to make a spring choice, a viscosity choice, and chose your settings. You still get the benefit of easier tuning of your suspension with externally adjustable damper controls, but you can't turn a "racetrack" spring and settings into the soft suspension of a cruiser without changing the spring rate. (and maybe fork oil viscosity too, but adjustable valves give a much wider range of response to any chosen oil viscosity)

WTBS,..... my bike is set up with a .67kg/mm spring, which is a compromise spring from what the spring rate calculator on Racetech's website says I should use. Their calculator said I should use a .93kg/mm spring. I called them on the phone and they stuck to their guns on their calculator, but I bought a .80kg/mm spring anyway because I knew that the stock commando spring is about .63kg/mm and I've never bottomed it out at 210lbs. I also bought springs off ebay. I bought .75kg/mm, .67kg/mm, and a .80-55kg/mm progressive spring. The .80kg/mm was approaching a racetrack bike feel IMO. I think Racetech's calculator is for race bikes in spite of them saying it's not. I can't imagine how stiff the .95kg/mm spring would have been. I tried them all and the .67kg/mm spring was aggressive enough to take away any floaty feel to my handling without being harsh. I've made a few sets, so I can swap in a different spring/set and continue to test at some point...

Through my conversations with a few different people I was trying to go to the thinnest fork oil possible and the smallest valve openings. I didn't like that much since I felt like the adjustments didn't do much at all. I went as low as 2.5wt silkolene RSF. I ran 5wt silkolene RSF for almost the whole summer, but now have switched to 7.5wt silkolene RSF. Fork oil changes viscosity with temperature, so I buy an expensive brand because it's viscosity index is high, so it changes viscosity less than cheap oil which leads to more consistent response across the heat range. I'm trying the 7.5wt now again with larger damper valve openings. I think it delays the secondary circuit from kicking in too early and the damper response of the second circuit is greater. I haven't experimented with the secondary valves yet, but aftermarket valves are available for sale from Racetech or I could just dremel the existing valve openings in a set to make a more responsive secondary circuit... Honestly, I'm not that interested in it because I try to drive around the pot holes as much as possible and the secondary circuit works fine over the expansion joints of the highway as it's set up right now anyway. Shim stack adjustment is one of the least known fields of expertise in motorcycling. I wish I had access to someone who was an expert in that field. I'm sure anyone who is an expert has become one in pursuit of racing on a track, not working for a dealership...

For me, this project was eye opening. I thought I would get buttery soft riding and race track handling in the same set up. I did not. I got to chose where on the spectrum of handling that I wanted to be in order to fit the kind of riding I do. Moderately aggressive sport riding. I gave up the buttery soft stock suspension with my choice. I think if a person wants to go down the higher performance handling route this modification (or the cosentino kit) is a good choice. You should get good sticky tires too, light alloy rims, and good adjustable rear suspension too. You also want good brakes if you're going to ride aggressively. Just like any modification, the entire package yields the most noticeable change.

If you look at my modification, the only external difference you see is the fork cap with the exposed controls for rebound damping and preload. I also drill a pair of holes in the front axle to adjust the compression valve with a hex key but that can't be seen so easily. The sad part of this modification is that it's a handling performance modification, but it's outlawed in many vintage race classes because it wasn't available during the era of these vintage bikes. I guess that's the way it has to be or guys would be mounting their commando engine in ducati frames or some other crazy stuff and the vintage classes would be one where the winners wouldn't be racing legitimate vintage machines... So it's a vanity project to improve the handling of an old sport bike...

below you see the fork caps with controls, the drilled front axle for compression adjustment, and a few sets with different springs and one longer damper with an internal top out spring.

fork damper caps.jpg
drilled axle1.jpg
damper sets.jpg
 
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My Seeley was originally built by a friend who worked for a Ducati dealer. It's forks are Ceriani from a 450 Ducati. I use SAE 15 fork oil, and have never had a problem, except when it had fork yokes with too much offset - it mishandled badly on one occasion, but that was geometry- not damping.
 
Very nice summary and explanation.

Ken
Thanks for all your help Ken. Not many people would welcome 50 emails chock full of questions from a stranger, much less answer them in the manner you did. The same goes for a few others here who also were consulted and responded favorably. Kommando, Ludwig, and probably a few others who's names escape me since I'm already finished with my project after that project... 🤣 Thank you all for your help!

And just to be clear, my project was a copy of Ken's project from a few years ago...
 
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oO,
I have the Cosentino set-up on mine and like the way you drilled the front axle for accessibility to the lower adjustment as you have to remove it for different settings. I was fortunate enough to find what works for me but I will drill mine out like yours.Good post without getting overly complicated.
Mike
 
Hey Mike, Initially I planned to use the drilled axle just for quick road testing adjustments, then I was going to change it out for an undrilled axle. I had a circuit that I rode regularly and a spot where I always stopped on each ride to make a quick adjustment so I could compare adjustment changes minutes apart on the same loop. If you get the drillings accurately aligned, it takes a minute to make the adjustment. Eventually, I rode around on that axle so much I was no longer worried that it might break, although I do worry when I recommend it now to you.. I carry this long handle hex wrench in a pocket to make adjustments. I cut the "T" part down so it fits better in my pocket too as the picture shows.

So, what brand and viscosity of fork oil are you using?? What are your damper settings?? (turns out from closed position) which spring did you use from the Cosentino kit?


set screw details1.jpg
 
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Thanks for all your help Ken. Not many people would welcome 50 emails chock full of questions from a stranger, much less answer them in the manner you did. The same goes for a few others here who also were consulted and responded favorably. Kommando, Ludwig, and probably a few others who's names escape me since I'm already finished with my project after that project... 🤣 Thank you all for your help!

And just to be clear, my project was a copy of Ken's project from a few years ago...
And mine was a copy of Chris Cosentino's.😁

Ken
 
Hey Mike, Initially I planned to use the drilled axle just for quick road testing adjustments, then I was going to change it out for an undrilled axle. I had a circuit that I rode regularly and a spot where I always stopped on each ride to make a quick adjustment so I could compare adjustment changes minutes apart on the same loop. If you get the drillings accurately aligned, it takes a minute to make the adjustment. Eventually, I rode around on that axle so much I was no longer worried that it might break, although I do worry when I recommend it now to you.. I carry this long handle hex wrench in a pocket to make adjustments. I cut the "T" part down so it fits better in my pocket too as the picture shows.

So, what brand and viscosity of fork oil are you using?? What are your damper settings?? (turns out from closed position) which spring did you use from the Cosentino kit?


View attachment 116519
oO,
I am using the lighter spring from the Cosentino kit. I weigh about 130lbs so my settings are on the lighter side.My preload is set at the minimum length along with 5W fork oil. I don’t remember the exact settings I use but after various fork oils and settings on the valves the bike handles nicely even when pushing it. I am pleased with this kit and hope this answers your questions.
Mike
 
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