Clutch Rod Seal

Installed it, but I find that the rod wants to go into the seal holder by about .057 to fully take up the slack in the rod to the lever distance, rod is 9.803. I don't know how I can effect this. According to the instructions, I can remove .01 from the seal holder, .02 from the clutch center nut, that does not come up anywhere near to .057. I have .10 mainshaft sticking out past my clutch center nut and min is .140. Early bike with just spring washer and clutch center nut. Now before Dynodave says it, why are my gearbox and engine shafts so far out of alignment? I checked my hub to sprocket alignment and actually it appears that the clutch hub wants to come out less than .10. That would take up even some of the .10 mainshaft that I currently have sticking out. As far as I know it was like this from the beginning. Nothing strange happened when I rebuilt it, everything went back together pretty much as it came out and the clutch adjusted as always after the rebuild. I have 2 shims between the clutch spacer and the clutch center, not sure their dimensions, I just put back what was there.

Another quandary. It may have something to do with why my clutch acts so critically with the adjuster stud.

I removed it and went for a ride, but I fettled for about 3 hours. You can't imagine how many times I had the primary cover off.

Dave
69S

The 3 (commando) push rods I have are 9.82" so you are giving up a little there... but the push rod always goes a bit more than .100" beyond the end of the shaft with the cable slack. The CCRS uses .100 exactically. Failure to stick out enough is not a complaint I have heard of before now.
The origin/reference is on the right side of the box. I would look there...undersized ball?....cam lever ball socket-to ramp too short?.... cam release rollers & bush worn- this has happened before due to rusted components wearing the rollers. Makes it hard to pull too!!!!

CCRS = Commando Clutch Rod Seal? Seems to make sense. .02 more with the rod would help. I don't know how much my rod goes past the trans shaft with the cable slack, I didn't measure that. I was surprised to feel slack on the lever when I tightened the adjuster, that never happened to me before, it's hitting the CCRS before the rod is taking up the slack. I don't know if the parts on the gearbox side are within spec, I'll have to pull it to see. Only 14K miles on it, so I doubt it, and everything is clean, but I'll check it out. I need to install a new pawl anyhow. I'll get an Atlas lever too and see if that helps.

Thanks, nice short ride today.

Dave
69S

After thinking about this overnight, I'm really wondering what is going on. If the dimensions in Dave C's drawings are correct and my parts are anywhere near normal, why do I have only .10 shaft showing past the clutch center nut. Seems to me the CCRS will only work of the o-ring is sealed on the rod and against the end of the transmission shaft. Unless I can thin the internal dimension of the CCRS and or take down the clutch center nut to expose more shaft, I will never get a seal there or be able to take up the rod to arm slop. I suppose at some point, I'm going to have to pull the gearbox cover to inspect those parts, and take off the clutch center nut to see if my trans shaft is short. Can't think of any other reason unless my clutch center hub is thick.

Until I do this, I'm thinking the CCRS is going to be sitting in it's plastic bag.

Dave
69S

"just spring washer and clutch center nut."

Spring washer????

Split ring type lock washer, no tab washer, no hardened washer.

Wouldn't that be why your nut is so far out on the shaft? Just put the standard lock tab there (break the tabs off!) or a thin washer with loctite and the pushrod seal will fit?

Not according to the dimensions he supplied me. According to Dave's numbers, I should have .253 sticking out past the nut even with the lock washer, but I don't. But you may be right, the washer is supposedly .075 which is more than the .057 I need.

Right now though, since I've cleaned the plates, I can't get the clutch to engage without grinding and neutral is hard to find. Ugh. It seems like my clutch plates liked the little bit of oil that was on them. I've loosened the primary chain, and adjusted the rod free play to nil and no satisfaction. Why did I mess with it? I never seem to learn to leave good enough alone.

At least I've got the S pipes spaced decently now. One good thing or maybe no good deed goes unpunished?

Dave
69S

The crook in the lever the rod ball bears on might be worn or the ball somehow not the right one. Possible someone re trimmed end of a past buggered rod. Thin-ist hard washer might be the easy way out. Oh yeah btw manufacturers like Barnnett's say to wet plates with ATF to prevent dry surface chatter-sticking texture bedding in. Chains like it better than engine oil too.

There is another ancient way around your short rod, it past to stifle oil following rod into plates the rod is cut pretty near the gb shell inside wall and a ball placed between the pieces so oil drips off more than travels then rod end shortened to perfection.

Seeley920 said:

Wouldn't that be why your nut is so far out on the shaft? Just put the standard lock tab there (break the tabs off!) or a thin washer with loctite and the pushrod seal will fit?

Click to expand...

If he does not have at a "minimum"...over .100" beyond the end of the shaft .... stop go no further.... until the trans gets repaired to as standard. don't even confuse the issue with anything else. He has found the problem but not the solution. Absolutely every commando I have worked on has enough rod sticking out to get the job done. If it didn't I would find out why and fix it before proceeding. I've made custom push rods like commando clutch on atlas gearboxes, but my CCRS was made to work in stock bikes and the only mod usually required is to thin the clutch center nut but clearly dave's bike is not normal if the rod does not stick out enough.

Sounds like clutch problems too. :cry:

This is an interesting problem:
I'm betting someone lost the 1/2" ball for the clutch arm and substituted a 3/8. Maybe we should take a poll of all the options and see who wins.
Good Luck, Dog. You will get it eventually.
JD75

Likely also installed over thick set of gaskets too : )

These simple things are so complex it takes world wide brain bank to help support many of us, like me for sure, and reason so many laid up so long till world technology caught up to support us.

DogT
I put 3 of these seals on commando's already and I've just used the 06-3459 locking tab washer under the mainshaft nut and left the thick lockwasher off, used blue locktight torqued mainshaft nut to 40 foot pounds and I've had plenty of mainshaft sticking out for the seal to seat against the end of the mainshaft and have just enough push rod sticking out to work good. I just thought I would mention this because I read that you used the lockwasher and all the lockwashers that were on our bikes were real thick.

OK, I'll at least pull off the clutch center nut/clutch basket and see what is going on with my spacing. That should tell me something. But not today.

I did run it up the driveway and around the barn and the clutch seems to be smoothing out a bit. We'll see.

Dave
69S

I did mine last year, took a couple of pics, but as you say it does no stick out much past the seal.


even made up a home made tool
I had to adjust the pull in a bit, but seems to work ok
If I was going back in I might get a touch machined off the inside of the seal holder.

Here's what's happening. Couple of things. Nothing in my trans shaft nor the spacers, shims, hub, washer or center nut is way out of reasonable measurements. The biggest items that add to my lack of protrusion of the trans shaft is the clutch hub, lock washer and the center nut. All are a bit larger than specified in Dave's drawings. However, even using Dave's dimensions I still will have only .099 from the center nut to the end of the shaft. Because of my parts, I have, by measurements, .082, in fact I have closer to .10, which is still no where near the .140 I need. I will have to remove or grind down parts to achieve that. I was thinking about just removing the split washer, mine is really about .085, that would give me plenty of protrusion.

The other thing was there was some chaf or something in the threads of the CCRS, once I cleaned that out, it threaded on another turn and a half. Now there is no problem with the rod protruding from the CCRS, as long as I can remove a washer or so.

I can't get enough by grinding down the CCRS, nor the center nut. I was thinking about just removing the lock washer and using plenty of blue locktite. Anyone have an issue with that? I don't know where I can find a hardened thin washer for that space unless I send away for it and it's .05, and brings me back to not having enough clearance.

Other thing was the reason the clutch was acting up, I didn't have the inner plate mounted correctly with the roll pins. One was protruding and ate up a bit of the inside friction plate on the edge. I doubt if that will matter as long as I get it all back together correctly.

Dave
69S

I was thinking about just removing the lock washer and using plenty of blue locktite. Anyone have an issue with that

Click to expand...

Dave, I did just that many years ago, that nut has never loosened properly torqued with locktite.

1up3down said:

I was thinking about just removing the lock washer and using plenty of blue locktite. Anyone have an issue with that

Click to expand...

Dave, I did just that many years ago, that nut has never loosened properly torqued with locktite.

Click to expand...

I used a Belleville washer per Comnoz's suggestion but failed to use loctite per instructions the first time and the nut did loosen, put it back together with blue loctite and all is well. I had the nut loosen twice using the too soft stock tab washer that compresses and loctite would not have helped. BTW, I lost the rubber part of the pushrod seal but substituted an X ring from a drive chain and it seems to be working well.

i've gotten away unattended 2+ yrs with just a flat steel washer and less than factory nip up torque sans loctite. The dished washer should be even better to go w/o loctite but blue an't that hard to over come and only a few scant threads so got no logic to apppy against loctite here. DynoDave gave me one of his first one out of goodness of heart but didn't intstall in Trixie with 2+ years un attended clutch and no gear box oil pollution into primary ATF.

It's back together with 45ft-lbs on the clutch nut and blue locktite, no washer/lock and 70ft-lbs on the rotor nut. Now I need to adjust the primary chain, loosen the rear brake and mess with the clutch adjuster stud. I think I'll wait til after I start it up to put the cover back on to make sure the clutch is working right. Both the rotor and clutch nut were blued before and were like getting off a nyloc or more once they broke loose. Love that heat gun on the crank sprocket, it helps with the locktite too.

I still may try an Atlas lever, I need to get in and install a new pawl, but it's not that bad. Once in a great while it slips one cog, but if I'm careful how I put the pressure on the kicker it never does.

I actually started it the other day with no stand, just straddling and kicking. I need to practice that more. Then switch to 20W50, maybe even syn.

Dave
69S