carburetor mountings

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maylar

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The factory hardware for attaching intake manifolds to a Commando head are socket head (Allen) bolts and just a flat washer. No lock washer. I've discovered that one of my manifolds is loose, and leaking air. I have the prerequisite cut down Allen wrench for dealing with these bolts, and I'm always careful to apply "just enough" torque, so as to not warp the manifold flanges. But loosening up is unacceptable.

What do you guys use?
 
I've been thinking about this for a while - I wonder if you could use a thackery washer in this application?
 
The Brits seem to have an aversion to lock washers. I usually add an internal lock or external "star" washer. I am not a purest, and prefer "maintenance free", rather than strictly by the book. I usually use blue Loctite on most fasteners, even with a lock or star washer.

In some of the places where a lock washer was left off, I may use only blue Loctite.

With motorcycles, there's a whole lot of shak'n going on.

Slick
 
I put spring washers on mine and never had any problems since, back in the late 70s one of my manafolds came lose it started to run on one cylinder but was about 70 miles from home It was dark and couldn't see what the problem was so I just turned the fuel tap off on the dead cylinder and rode it home wasn't till next morning I found the bolt had come lose thats when I started to put the spring washers on them.

Ashley
 
In rebuilding my Enfield Interceptor, I noticed that they used internal shake proofs just about everywhere.
I dislike them because not only do the cut into the paint they really do cut into the frame metal as well.
But then considering the vibration problems of late 60's brit bikes, at least they were trying to address the problem.
 
I put lock washers on mine as well, and have had no problems.
I became so frustrated working those inner allen-head bolts that I drilled 2 holes in the frame plate just outside the big grommet area, bought a Bondhus 03111 t-handle wrench (looks like the tool number is now 13111) and now have a straight shot to those 2 devilishly-placed fasteners. Cut about 5/8" off one of the "T" handles to get some rotation clearing the frame top tube, and feel much better every time I go there.
Which is not often, of course, but still...
 
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helica ... ashers.htm

Helical spring lock washers have been in use for well over 100 years. They are still used on many applications in the belief that they will will "lock" the nut/bolt to the joint and prevent loosening. The body of evidence, based upon both experience and experimental results, is that they do not prevent loosening and can be shown to actually speed up the rate of loosening in many cases. Junker originally showed in his work published in 1969 that these washers are ineffective in preventing loosening.
 
splatt said:
Try nordlocs, work extremely well

Thanks. If I could find them locally, I'd definitely try those. But seeing that this is the 4th of July weekend and I want to ride, I think I'll succumb to using blue Loctite. The heads of those Allen bolts are small OD and I'd be afraid that a standard lock washer would deform.

My intake manifolds are chromed which may have something to do with them not "gripping" the flat washer. But they've been like that for almost 40 years and only recently have given me issues.

I became so frustrated working those inner allen-head bolts that I drilled 2 holes in the frame plate just outside the big grommet area, bought a Bondhus 03111 t-handle wrench (looks like the tool number is now 13111) and now have a straight shot to those 2 devilishly-placed fasteners.

Awesome idea.
 
Norton uses hex head bolts to secure the carb to the manifold. I replace the inner hexes with allens, then I can take off the carbs without disturbing the manifolds
 
On the manifolds on my bike there are two rubbers which accept the carb stubs, so I don't need to undo the mounting bolts to take the carbs off. If all else fails, all you need to do is drill the heads of the bolts and use lock wire.
 
Danno said:
Red Locktite. Or, stainless allen heads and lock washers.

Be careful with the Red Loctite. You may want to take that bolt out one day.
 
L.A.B. said:
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm

Helical spring lock washers have been in use for well over 100 years. They are still used on many applications in the belief that they will will "lock" the nut/bolt to the joint and prevent loosening. The body of evidence, based upon both experience and experimental results, is that they do not prevent loosening and can be shown to actually speed up the rate of loosening in many cases. Junker originally showed in his work published in 1969 that these washers are ineffective in preventing loosening.

Although I've read that and the FAA says in AC 43.13-1B that they're not to be used in primary structures or where frequent removal is necessary, I find when removing very large nuts with split ring lock washers from equipment that often they tear quite a bit of metal from both the nut and base material. I can't help but think they are actually locking the fastener in that situation. The tearing/gouging happens long after the initial loosening has begun.

Having said that I agree that they have no place on an engine or just about anywhere else where a metal to metal joint is made and sufficient torque can be applied to stretch the fastener.

Having worked on aircraft for years I am fond of self locking nuts, castle nuts on anything subject to rotation (rotation is the key, cotter key, that is), and safety wire for anything that can't be secured in other fashion and shouldn't be allowed to come loose.
 
JimNH said:
L.A.B. said:
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm

Helical spring lock washers have been in use for well over 100 years. They are still used on many applications in the belief that they will will "lock" the nut/bolt to the joint and prevent loosening. The body of evidence, based upon both experience and experimental results, is that they do not prevent loosening and can be shown to actually speed up the rate of loosening in many cases. Junker originally showed in his work published in 1969 that these washers are ineffective in preventing loosening.

Although I've read that and the FAA says in AC 43.13-1B that they're not to be used in primary structures or where frequent removal is necessary, I find when removing very large nuts with split ring lock washers from equipment that often they tear quite a bit of metal from both the nut and base material. I can't help but think they are actually locking the fastener in that situation. The tearing/gouging happens long after the initial loosening has begun.

Having said that I agree that they have no place on an engine or just about anywhere else where a metal to metal joint is made and sufficient torque can be applied to stretch the fastener.

Having worked on aircraft for years I am fond of self locking nuts, castle nuts on anything subject to rotation (rotation is the key, cotter key, that is), and safety wire for anything that can't be secured in other fashion and shouldn't be allowed to come loose.

+ 1. I have seen that gouging of metal and agree in that instance, they lock. Most of the time however, there is no gouging and they are useless.

Slick
 
Having said that I agree that they have no place on an engine or just about anywhere else where a metal to metal joint is made and sufficient torque can be applied to stretch the fastener.
Gosh. First of all, this is not a metal-metal joint unless you are leaving off the so-called heat insulators (I use 2 of them on each side).
And if you are trying to stretch these bolts, I wd consider that's much too tight. I was told to stop as soon as the washer is flattened. Never had a problem.
 
Postby Nortoniggy » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:17 am

They originally had spring washers on the Allen screws. They didn't come loose.
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I believe that is correct. Mine are the same and I have not had one come loose yet.
Dereck
 
Nortoniggy said:
They originally had spring washers on the Allen screws. They didn't come loose.

What do you refer to as spring washers? My bike has flat washers on the Allen bolts, and it's most definitely factory stock. The exploded view on OldBritts web site shows what looks like internal tooth locks, but the part number reference 11796 on Norvil's site says NM11796 WASHER - 5/16" - PLAIN - SMALL OUTER DIAMETER which is what I have.
 
maylar said:
Nortoniggy said:
They originally had spring washers on the Allen screws. They didn't come loose.

What do you refer to as spring washers? My bike has flat washers on the Allen bolts, and it's most definitely factory stock. The exploded view on OldBritts web site shows what looks like internal tooth locks, but the part number reference 11796 on Norvil's site says NM11796 WASHER - 5/16" - PLAIN - SMALL OUTER DIAMETER which is what I have.

The ones as in LAB's post
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helica ... ashers.htm

I bought my Commando new so know these were what it was fitted with from the factory in '72. If you Loctite them you will regret it when you want to remove them. You can only turn them a fraction of a turn with an Allen key so would get really tedious removing them. As stock you can loosen them with key a bit and then use a finger from below and above to unscrew them by hand.

I think Andover have got their washers the wrong way round. Parts 34 & 36 should be the other way round. Plain washer on carb flange and spring on manifold.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-dr ... -mountings

Ian
 
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