Cam Sensor

Hi,

New to the forum and Norton brand. My father and I just purchased a Dominator and Dominator SS and have had a couple of teething issues at first but after a grand total of 15 miles now, completely stumped by the latest problem and was hoping someone here has knowledge of the issue.

Yesterday at the DVLA, much to my embarrassment the Dominator SS decided to give up the ghost (more so as a Zongshen scooter passed inspection and rode away). The bike would turn over but not start and did so until the battery was about to die. So last night we checked the fuel and spark and after recharging the battery, still no joy. After hunting around on the forum we found a post that the cam sensor maybe to blame. So we swapped the sensors between the two bikes (after all that is the point of having two of the same bikes right).

The Dominator SS fired to life straight away (and better than before as it used to take a few seconds to fire up). The Dominator however did not fire, so problem solved, faulty sensor.

This morning you can imagine how much of twit I looked when I rolled up to the DVLA for a second time only to have it not start on me again. (Luckily no Zongshen scooters were around at this time.) Same issue as before, turns over but does not start. I haven't had time to swap the sensors round again but I am guessing that this sensor is now dead.

The two questions I am hoping someone might know the answers to are:
1. Has anyone experienced this and knows why the sensors would fail after a 3 minute ride? (There was no rain on both rides so I have ruled out water getting in there.)
2. Does anyone know what the resistance range is for a sensor that should be working? I have the workshop manual but couldn't find anything in there about how to test it. And which of the three pins you would use to test it.

Any advice or ideas is much appreciated as we are at a loss on what is causing it.

Re: Crank Sensor

Hi This failed on my bike (a Dominator) also last year and as it was a Sunday afternoon and no replacement I had it towed back to the factory. The unit was replaced and I have had no problems since. I took it to be the weather and the fact I had ridden through all sorts of Thunder storms that year. The RAC guy who towed my bike back was able to measure the resistance across the terminals but I cannot remember which ones sorry.

Re: Crank Sensor

This would be a great time to have the Norton Factory speak up and let us know how to troubleshoot this with a DVM ? This is the cam sensor then in front of the engine by the cam ? Maybe a tip over sensors or the side stand switch . ? Can a dealer plug into the ECU port and will the system tell them what is wrong ? It is frustrating to have this happen to virtually new bikes.

Update: I meant to talk about the Cam sensor on the front of the engine not crank sensor.

About to swap them around again and break out the ohmmeter to see if I can get a benchmark reading. A friend who is a car mechanic and deals with electrics every day is going to stop by later to see if he can troubleshoot it but reckons a bad wiring harness or short could be killing the sensor. I will post an update once I figure out more.

Re: Crank Sensor

TonyA said:

Can a dealer plug into the ECU port and will the system tell them what is wrong ? It is frustrating to have this happen to virtually new bikes.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately there are no dealers where we are. It has never been a problem as between my father and I, we have owed 9 different brands of bikes and always managed to fix the issue. Just never had a bike die this early on us

Just swapped the cam sensors between the two bikes. Now both bikes are dead. We ran the voltmeter across the cam sensor plug and noticed some interesting readings:

Dominator:
Pink-Purple: 8 volts
Green-Purple: 4 volts

Dominator SS:
Pink-Purple: -4 volts
Green-Purple: 0.3 volts

Completely different readings. I fear that my friend may be correct and the issue is hiding in the harness somewhere. Now consulting the electrical diagram hoping to shed some light on the where the gremlin is hiding.

The speed sensor is the exact same part number. Try it. There has been a lot of issues lately with cam sensors. I wonder if someone is trying to make a few extra bucks selling Norton chinese knock offs. This reminds me of why we sourced better ignition coils. --- oohhhhh!!!

richard-7 said:

The speed sensor is the exact same part number. Try it. There has been a lot of issues lately with cam sensors. I wonder if someone is trying to make a few extra bucks selling Norton chinese knock offs. This reminds me of why we sourced better ignition coils. --- oohhhhh!!!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip we will give that a try tomorrow, see if we can at least get one bike up and running. When we Googled the part number we noticed a lot of Chinese parts that are now discounted so wouldn't be surprised if that did happen. Found out that the sensor is the same sensor used on Seadoo jet skis so will pop by the local Seadoo dealer to see if it the same sensor in stock.

No luck tracking down the gremlin yet in the harness or connectors. Looked at the wiring diagram and we are just guessing at the moment that it could be the diode between the two ground wires that has fried. Will post an update when we know more.

In the meantime does anyone know where I can download a full electrical diagram for the 961. The one in workshop manual is only the centre part of the diagram and has the sides cut off.

No , But this wiring diagram is in my manual. I am not sure what you mean when you say cut off. This diagram looks complete to me. The 5th block up from the bottom on the right side is the cam position sensor with the diode (Transil Diode) you spoke of and how it connects to the ECU.

Thanks TonyA! The one in my manual is a photocopy of this on A4 paper/US Letter. So I only have the middle part of this, missing the gauges and colour code legend.

Just to add my contribution I have a MK 2 Commando the temperature sensor at the back of the cylinder head under the inlet manifolds failed after 2000 miles this apparently sends messages to the ECU, when this failed no spark to the plugs. I now carry a spare and also crank sensor, cheap enough and small enough to carry. Otherwise 3500m miles and going well.

1939 model 50
1956 Dominator
Rotary Classic
Norton F1
MK 2 Commando sport

Having to carry spare electrical components with me on a brand new machine would drive me insane!

Personally, I've not done this since I stopped using points (slight exaggeration, I do carry a spare spark plug).

I can (only) just accept the 'hand built' argument as an excuse for occasional assembly related errors.

But this kind of thing has nothing to do with being hand built at all. These sensors aren't hand built! They're probably coming out of a machine in China faster than the eye can see them!

All modern vehicles are bristling with sensors supplied by 3rd party suppliers. Hundreds of millions are supplied and used annually. Specifying the right sensor AND right supplier is thus very important. But it ain't rocket science and it ain't ok to expect customers to suffer like this.

This kind of issue should be stamped out by proper root cause problem solving. If the sensors are counterfeit then more robust procurement processes are required. If they are simply from a poor supplier then a new supplier should be found. If they are just too cheap for the task or have been under specified, then a few pence per vehicle needs to be 'swallowed' to solve the problem, etc.

I realise this might come across as a bit of a rant, and I admit it's 'touched a nerve' as it's basically part of my day job doing stuff like this, so perhaps I'm a bit abnormal, nerdy or anal about it, but to see it causing customers grief and not being addressed is just so sad as it's so unnecessary.

Any manufacturer who took my money and did not or could not address such issues systematically would just drive me up the wall, be it a washing machine or a hand built 'exclusive' motorcycle...!

All only IMHO of course.

I agree 100% !

Very disappointing, I'd be hopping mad if I were in the same situation. I hope this gets sorted out quickly so you can enjoy your new bikes.

The head temp sensor is apparently very sensible though. On my bike it was damaged as well and the search for the reason of poor running engine very time consuming... Last sensor changed was this one. And now everthing perfect again!

Fast Eddie said:

Having to carry spare electrical components with me on a brand new machine would drive me insane!

Personally, I've not done this since I stopped using points (slight exaggeration, I do carry a spare spark plug).

I can (only) just accept the 'hand built' argument as an excuse for occasional assembly related errors.

But this kind of thing has nothing to do with being hand built at all. These sensors aren't hand built! They're probably coming out of a machine in China faster than the eye can see them!

All modern vehicles are bristling with sensors supplied by 3rd party suppliers. Hundreds of millions are supplied and used annually. Specifying the right sensor AND right supplier is thus very important. But it ain't rocket science and it ain't ok to expect customers to suffer like this.

This kind of issue should be stamped out by proper root cause problem solving. If the sensors are counterfeit then more robust procurement processes are required. If they are simply from a poor supplier then a new supplier should be found. If they are just too cheap for the task or have been under specified, then a few pence per vehicle needs to be 'swallowed' to solve the problem, etc.

I realise this might come across as a bit of a rant, and I admit it's 'touched a nerve' as it's basically part of my day job doing stuff like this, so perhaps I'm a bit abnormal, nerdy or anal about it, but to see it causing customers grief and not being addressed is just so sad as it's so unnecessary.

Any manufacturer who took my money and did not or could not address such issues systematically would just drive me up the wall, be it a washing machine or a hand built 'exclusive' motorcycle...!

All only IMHO of course.

Click to expand...

LET'S FACE IT. GETTING STUCK SUCKS, ESPECIALLY AT OUR AGE!!!!! NORTON. ARE YOU READING THIS???

Makes you wonder if the MK2 designation is intended for a new group of buyers, has nothing to do with the bike.
I wish Garner would sell the company to John Bloor or someone with a similar philosophy on business.
Bloor started with bikes that were over engineered because he said the business wouldn't survive if he built lemons. Lots of those bikes , such as the Daytona 1200, are still in use with very high miles, some as high as 150,000 and still going strong.

Seems Garner is already focussed on the next fun thing without really ever sorting the 961. It's been left to the enthusiasts to figure it out.
Glen

I do not fully agree with your rant but I forgive you. The problem with my sensor it could have been fitted incorrectly as they are quite delicate or it could have been knocked resulting in a fail, there is a lot to keep clean. I agree with some of the comments made about SG but at least we have a choice were we spend our dosh. Recently purchased a Mercedes C Class 220 AMG line 1200 miles 16 plate I was appalled at the paint work on both sides of the car and was sent back to the dealer, who in all fairness exchanged. Why I mention this Mercedes with all there clout do not get it right.
Love my Norton's :lol:
DODGY DEN

I would like to see them fix the bike after seven years of production. It seems that the Norton 961 owners are a very forgiving group, perhaps too forgiving!

It's likely that all would be forgiven if a reliable 961 was produced today, the company could continue.


Glen

I agree 100 % !